The Stellar Turbo K100

[stellarkyle]

Finally got around to working on the bike again. I have the clutch out and the friction plate is 5.15mm so well within the limits but I can’t tell if the plate had oil on it. It looks a little glossy to me. How does it look to you guys?
 




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[Arktasian]

Pretty quiet up there in the turbo bleachers, I'll comment.
Yours being a turbo with above stock power output but depending on budget, could go several ways.
This design of clutch is similar to the airhead in that the friction steels can warp due to heat and also just the way the support basket is designed and such. If that happens the used disc will also tend to warp - not a direct problem for reuse but something to be aware of if just a disc is swapped out, as that will then tend to slip or require a tedious bed in period.
I've tested upgrades, and use a much stronger disc with 4 paddles (or pucks, sometimes referred to as a ceramic disc although there is a blend of metal in the friction material, was from Oleg @ Clutchnet.com ), but have also found you can live with warped steels if they are at the same angle (basically removed at the same time, kept together). The stronger, thicker spring is a good idea, but I also machine the fulcrum point of the inner plate which changes release ratio (and clamping load alternately). That started out as a test on the airhead, but now is the stock clutch, never been able to get it to slip and releases nicely.
If your parts all look good (and may not have seen much use), & there aren't heat witness signs on the steels, then you could clean/ roughen the plate (a wash and burn with alcohol is an age old proven "economy" method) and put back together.

[stellarkyle]

I put everything back together last month and ran into an issue; I could change gears without the clutch being engaged and when I did engage the clutch, it didn't disengage power to the transmission. This weekend, I finally had time to take a look at it again. I took everything apart and took the transmission cover off and didn't seem amiss. I put everything back together and is still having the same issue.

The only thing I could find on the forum that sounded similar was the grub screw being loose but I don't think the symptoms quite match up. Anyone have any suggestions?

[The Mighty Gryphon]

The grub screw manifests itself by a lot(1-2 inches or more) of looseness at the end of the shift lever.

[stellarkyle]

The grub screw manifests itself by a lot(1-2 inches or more) of looseness at the end of the shift lever.

Does this sound like a grub screw problem to you? I re-did the transmission cover gasket when I did the spline lube so not sure how the grub screw could have come loose. My thought was something got out of place when putting the transmission cover back on even though everything looked right according to the manual.

[Laitch]

The grub screw manifests itself by a lot(1-2 inches or more) of looseness at the end of the shift lever.

Does this sound like a grub screw problem to you? I re-did the transmission cover gasket when I did the spline lube so not sure how the grub screw could have come loose.

If your bike's shift lever has movement to the degree mentioned in Gryph's post, then the problem may reside in the grub screw. It us unconnected with what you've done. It's a factory assembly flaw that can be corrected.

[stellarkyle]

If your bike's shift lever has movement to the degree mentioned in Gryph's post, then the problem may reside in the grub screw. It us unconnected with what you've done. It's a factory assembly flaw that can be corrected.

I checked the grub screw and it's tight. I couldn't even tighten it at all. Any other thoughts?

[Laitch]

I checked the grub screw and it's tight. I couldn't even tighten it at all. Any other thoughts?

Now that I've reviewed Reply #77, I think you should verify that your clutch lever, cable and clutch bolt are adjusted to specification and working correctly, and that the clutch rod didn't roll under the bench and get left out during the reassembly process.

[The Mighty Gryphon]

Are you sure you checked the grub screw?  It's inside the transmission and takes half a day to get to it.  Do you have a lot of free play at the end of the shifter?   

[stellarkyle]

Are you sure you checked the grub screw?  It's inside the transmission and takes half a day to get to it.  Do you have a lot of free play at the end of the shifter?

Yep! I already had the bike half apart. There's no free play in my shifter. It's this lil guy, no?

[Arktasian]

Kyle, you've been rather busy and adventuresome.
Regarding the "grub screw", did you put an allen key to it and merely tighten - perhaps getting it to move a touch? That might disturb the sleeping beast so to speak and allow it to work loose later. Best long term approach is to remove screw and clean all surfaces and threads completely (use brake clean), then reassemble utilizing Loctite.
Otherwise, what you seem to be describing is a clutch that never releases, so I'd have to concur with "Laitch's" comments and advice.
Additionally, is there a normal resistance on the clutch lever to indicate its registering with the push rod and clutch. If it was able to release before but doesn't now, best to review everything that has been apart. I'm not entirely sure it is possible to re-install the disc backwards, but that would be a thought.

[stellarkyle]

Kyle, you've been rather busy and adventuresome.

Is that your way of saying I'm in over my head? If so, I totally agree.  :riding:

Regarding the "grub screw", did you put an allen key to it and merely tighten - perhaps getting it to move a touch? That might disturb the sleeping beast so to speak and allow it to work loose later. Best long term approach is to remove screw and clean all surfaces and threads completely (use brake clean), then reassemble utilizing Loctite.

It didn't even budge which really surprised me. If it had moved at all, I would have taken it apart and cleaned everything.

Otherwise, what you seem to be describing is a clutch that never releases, so I'd have to concur with "Laitch's" comments and advice.
Additionally, is there a normal resistance on the clutch lever to indicate its registering with the push rod and clutch. If it was able to release before but doesn't now, best to review everything that has been apart. I'm not entirely sure it is possible to re-install the disc backwards, but that would be a thought.

That's exactly right; it never releases. I've checked the plate, compression spring, compression plate, etc and everything is installed correctly. Sounds like the push rod may be the culprit. With the transmission out, I can change gears no matter where I position of the clutch push rod by hand.

[Arktasian]

The gear shifting process may be easy enough to allow components to slide and mesh without butt teething them selves.
The point is what is going on with the push rod, the little bearing carrier adjacent to the crank arm, etc. There should be a definite "different resistance" feel to the clutch release handle on your bars, as you squeeze it slightly to reduce the so called free play at which point the little bearing and push rod are moving forward and seating in the Bellville clutch spring disc center pocket and relieving disc clamping. That all should have a definite feel of resistance. If not, then unless you have a boatload full of excess free play you may have a worn hole in the rod pocket and its just moving towards the front without catching on the spring disc. It should be a smallish, polished seat in the center disc of the spring. Another clue would be if you changed any settings significantly - which might signify something done wrong.  Shouldn't be too hard to diagnose.

[stellarkyle]

The clutch is working correctly again. I think the clutch rod was slightly bent and I also failed to hold the stop lever back when reinstalling the transmission cover.

I now have a new problem though. My bike keeps flooding. In order to get the bike to start after sitting a while, I have to remove the fuse for the fuel pump and run the starter for 15-30 seconds until it slowly comes to life. I can then put the fuse back in and it will run but run rich. I can then kill and turn the bike back on without problems, but if it sits for a while (a few hours or overnight), it'll be flooded and won't start until I try to start it a while with the fuse out again. If I hit the starter button while it's idling, the RPMs drop and it dies or almost dies.

Here's what I've looked into:
1. Injectors seems to be squirting correctly. I didn't pull them but they're all clicking like they're opening and closing properly.
2. Air temp sensor in the MAF seems to be working fine as well. I didn't heat it up to measure the full range but it showed the right resistance at ambient temperature.
3. All the plugs were wet when I pulled them.
4. Checked and cleaned the L-Jetronic connection.
5. Fuel pressure is right around the 36psi range. I replaced the FPR anyway without luck.
6. I replaced the coolant temperature sensor.
7. I replaced the fuel pressure switch that goes to the 5th injector in the manifold (turbo).
8. I verified the timing and position of the Hall sensor using a timing light and everything was good.

It seems like I have two issues: 1st - Fuel is finding its way into the cylinder after sitting. 2nd - I'm getting too much fuel while it's running.

[Arktasian]

Think what I'd try is to slip a small pressure gauge inline with the fuel injectors. Although many pressure regulators will bleed down over time, the pressure should remain somewhat stable on initial shut down. If not, then it would be simple to access that one or more injectors is leaking/ dribbling. That would explain both symptoms, although a confirmation of regulator might still be in order (it is far easier to get to as well)
Did you ever perform the oil scavenge a) drain rate, b) pump back to sump rate tests? I'm mentioning that again due to it being very misunderstood and underappreciated while being largely responsible for smoking turboed K bikes.

[stellarkyle]

Think what I'd try is to slip a small pressure gauge inline with the fuel injectors. Although many pressure regulators will bleed down over time, the pressure should remain somewhat stable on initial shut down. If not, then it would be simple to access that one or more injectors is leaking/ dribbling. That would explain both symptoms, although a confirmation of regulator might still be in order (it is far easier to get to as well)

Now that you mention it, when I had a pressure gauge hooked up in line (between the tank and rail) before replacing the FPR, the fuel pressure would be at the right pressure and then would drop over the course of a few seconds when I turned off the engine... What I don't understand is if I loose pressure that quickly, I don't see how I could start it again without a problem 15mins later, but not 3-8 hours later.

Another thing to note, last year I replaced the four injectors with Oside Tiger injectors but didn't replace or touch the fifth injector in the manifold. Maybe that's the problem or maybe one of the new injectors went bad. I'll pull the rail to take a look and cut power to the fifth injector to see if there's any difference.

Did you ever perform the oil scavenge a) drain rate, b) pump back to sump rate tests? I'm mentioning that again due to it being very misunderstood and underappreciated while being largely responsible for smoking turboed K bikes.

I haven't yet, no. That was next on my to-do list after the spline lube/clutch problem until this new issue came up. I'll definitely look into that soon. Mine can be a bit smokey so thank you for the reminder!

[Arktasian]

Fuel pressure decay on a stationary rig can be more of a problem for some systems than others. The pressure returns quite rapidly during crank (some kits like the MS provide initial prime as you key up previous to cranking as well, not familiar on the Motronic's agenda). Hence a longer off period might result in more of a bleed down. Not sure if your 5th enrichment injector is able to drain down towards the inlet chambers for the flooding, but I'd be confirming all the injectors with a "power off/ pressure drip test" which you could co-ordinate with some hose/ clamps/ shop air pressure etc. A small amount of gas introduced into the hose prior to connection to the shop air at reg pressure (most systems run 43psi roughly - good enough for the test).
The other possibility might be that the "ambitious" RB vacuum and control hose plumbing have a wrong connection to allow an incorrect handling of the fuel. Have you managed to find a document on the plumbing - a polite query to RB might prove helpful (believe their documentation was pretty good, there were multiple renditions of kits and hardware - they have an interesting web site).
If not, you might draw out what you have connected and do a review here - with collective wisdom should be able to suss it out.

[stellarkyle]

Fuel pressure decay on a stationary rig can be more of a problem for some systems than others. The pressure returns quite rapidly during crank (some kits like the MS provide initial prime as you key up previous to cranking as well, not familiar on the Motronic's agenda). Hence a longer off period might result in more of a bleed down. Not sure if your 5th enrichment injector is able to drain down towards the inlet chambers for the flooding, but I'd be confirming all the injectors with a "power off/ pressure drip test" which you could co-ordinate with some hose/ clamps/ shop air pressure etc. A small amount of gas introduced into the hose prior to connection to the shop air at reg pressure (most systems run 43psi roughly - good enough for the test).

I unplugged the fifth injector and it didn't have any effect. Then I pulled the rail to do some tests on the injectors. I ran a leak test by unplugging all the electronic connectors and then pressurized the rail by hitting the starter button. None of the injectors leaked even after a couple minutes. I also took a video of the injectors firing. It looks like my injectors are putting out a lot of fuel compared to other videos of K100 injectors. I guess that shouldn't be surprising since it's running rich.



Could the Jetronic ECU be telling the injectors to stay wide open? Is the correct test for checking the signal from the EFI the one where you hook up a 12V LED at the electrical plug that goes to the injector?

[johnny]

greetings...

stray coil voltage has torched a few bricks over the years...

thanks for sharing... now gimme a lucky strike... its toasted...

j o

[Laitch]

thanks for sharing... now gimme a lucky strike... its toasted...

In case your cryptometer can't decipher this message, Kyle, it refers to this incident, among others.

[stellarkyle]

In case your cryptometer can't decipher this message, Kyle, it refers to this incident, among others.

Thank you for the translation; I was completely lost. Luckily my bike and I remain unburned.

Any other ideas? I'm tempted to buy another FI computer to see if that helps.

[Arktasian]

Kyle, I think if you search the forums here you will probably gain some troubleshooting  procedures for the controller possibly being defective. But try to reside in the “Simple is Best” camp and consider what may have  taken place or occurred to allow a sudden failure there. I would agree that appears to be a massive amount of fuel being sprayed. I’m not familiar with the home grown ECU but most fuel injection strategies provide fused ignition power to the injectors directly and the fuel load delivery is calculated and developed by the return ground pathway. Any recent rewiring or changes that might  explain a direct path to ground ?
Strange things can happen in the electrical realm - time to reign things in and figure this out.

[zenitramnaes]

Just read through all of this. I hope you get things sorted. Reminds me when I bought my E34 535i that was turbocharged by a previous owner. Took me a while to figure out everyhing that was done and make it mine. Anyway, I'd love to see a turbo charged K in person!

[K_grendell]

Have you had a chance to get this bike out and going? I hope so and would love to hear your thoughts. I’m waiting for my ihi to come back from being rebuilt and my new rs is arriving tomorrow to start assembling my lufty kit into it.

[Arktasian]

We haven't heard from Kyle for quite some time now (not that I'm a "stellar" poster and example of rapid project closure).
If you wish to chat with someone with a running Lufty turbo kit, PM me for a chat and a contact for a Dude on the Islands.
Hopefully someone else posts here, I hate being the last participant on a thread.