HELP!! Can't run it. URGENT!

[rbm]

Looks ok.  You're reading 3530 Ohms from Pin 10 to ground.  Although not in the table, it appears that the reading is indicating the connection to the thermister is intact and working.  So, it's not an enrichment problem.

The lack of speedo connected will only impair two functions -- start enable and charging.  You are getting around start enable by pulling in the clutch while trying to start the engine.  The charge issue won't be a problem if you just want to get the engine to run for 30 seconds to validate that everything is working.

I'm assuming that you haven't touched anything mechanical on the engine, like move the HES plate or do timing chain or anything like that.  Correct??

Still thinking of things to check, Piotr.  Stay tuned...

[PiotrK100]

I checked also AFM for connection and all is perfect set up.

I have a bad luck, or I did something bad in a previous life: I did succesfuly glue my tank with Technicol but I put the tank verticaly with only 5l of gas and....it sink thru the cap and all painture went out. I wanna kill myself. Wasted so much money time and afford...and engine still ...nothing. WTF???? :dunno

[PiotrK100]

I did not touch timing at all, hall sensor has been removed (all was marked and back on signs) just in case while blasting the engine. I changed handlebar swiches and levers so for now the clutch sensor I connect with wire (before the starter wont turn) as all connection I wanted to do after lunching the engine.

[enb54]

flow chart...

j o

Piotr...maybe a long shot, but in johnny's post above, there is mention of the "idle control switch" specifically "IF the bike doesn't start and you suspect the fuel injection, try to start the engine with this switch disconnected. A bad switch may send a wrong signal to the EFI computer. When this switch is disconnected, the EFI thinks that your are twisting the throttle." . Sounds like your electrical grounds are OK, so you should be firing. Have no other ideas at this time, looks like everyone is thinking hard about your problem...

Eric

[The Mighty Gryphon]

I am totally confused by this thread right now.  You tell us that...

...you have spark
...plug wiring is correct
...spark timing is correct or at least close
...the starter turns
...the fuel pump is running and pressurizing the rail
...you have +12v and a signal pulse at the injectors
...and yet the engine won't even cough...

I think you mentioned that the plugs are dry when you check them, even though you tell us you have fuel pressure and an injector signal.

Is there someplace local where you can have the injectors tested away from the rest of the engine?

[The Mighty Gryphon]

Question for the brain trust:

Is it possible that the EFI unit can put out(sink actually) enough current to light an LED, but not enough to open an injector?  An LED only needs 4-5ma to flash.  A 5 ohm injector load across 12v is going to draw an instantaneous 2.5A.  Big difference...

[Scott_]

Question for the brain trust:

Is it possible that the EFI unit can put out(sink actually) enough current to light an LED, but not enough to open an injector?  An LED only needs 4-5ma to flash.  A 5 ohm injector load across 12v is going to draw an instantaneous 2.5A.  Big difference...

Yes, I would think so.
I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread to pull the rail with injectors attached and check the spray pattern.  Yes, he may need new o-rings, but at least we would have a better idea if the injectors are really working or not.

[rbm]

Inge suggested in post #13 to use a screwdriver as a stethoscope to listen for the clicking of the injectors as the bike is cranked.  Safer than spraying fuel around the bike.

I'm with Gryphon.  All the elements for getting ignition are present but no life out of the engine.  All the symptoms seem to point to electrical faults.  Piotr noted that the engine was stripped to have it media blasted.  I don't know how far the disassembly went; for example were all the timing, cam and crank covers removed?  I'm not as mechanical so I couldn't suggest if  the blasting or mechanical reassembly could have caused the no-start symptoms.

[rbm]

I have a bad luck, or I did something bad in a previous life: I did succesfuly glue my tank with Technicol but I put the tank verticaly with only 5l of gas and....it sink thru the cap and all painture went out. I wanna kill myself. Wasted so much money time and afford...and engine still ...nothing. WTF???? :dunno

Man, that's horrid!  Looks like the painter didn't use a 2-part primer and paint on the tank.  At least the top clear coat should have been a 2-part but it gets tricky applying 2-part clear over enamel.

[The Mighty Gryphon]

Robert, I am thinking that the electrical is good.  He claims to have spark, fuel pressure, and pulsing to the injectors.  The only thing missing is fuel flow.  I don't know how all 4 injectors would stop working, but if they're getting a signal, there should be gas going into the engine and getting the plugs wet.

The reason I ask about pull down current capacity of pin 12 on the EFI is that is the only reason I can see for having an LED flash but no injector operation.  Or am I missing something here?  I am not that experienced with fuel injection systems, only using logic on the information we have so far.

[Elipten]

He said it fires if put some gas in the cylinders.  I'm a simple mechanic.  I say pull the fuel rail with injectors, put a sheet of metal and see if the injectors spray evenly.  Got to confirm there is fuel getting to cylinders..

As I was taught, air, fuel, compression, spark.

Have you checked compression? 

Time to confirm fuel.

You pulled a plug and checked spark?

[PiotrK100]

We have a time diffrence so it is not easy to exchange information on line. Lets answer for all post accordingly:

- i did disconnect the throttle position sensor and no diffrence
- injectors were checked and cleaned in December and according to the service all is perfect
- injectors do not sparay at all, no injection pattern than
- how I cna check if EFI gives enough power that can move injectors? not only LED??

All is as should be.
What I'll is to bring today injectors to the company that cleaned injectors and check them but it is unlikely that all 4 get stucked. But must eliminate all step by step.  I'm also very interested in checkingpin 12 in EFI but how?????

[Scott_]

The reason I ask about pull down current capacity of pin 12 on the EFI is that is the only reason I can see for having an LED flash but no injector operation.  Or am I missing something here?  I am not that experienced with fuel injection systems, only using logic on the information we have so far.

Ok, Lets also think about the other side of the circuit as well. It's possible that the +12 source relay contact could be dirty/bad that can flow enough to light LED, but not strong enough to drive injector. 

Piotrk100, can you read the DC voltage at the injector while you are trying to start?
From the +12 injector lead to frame ground while cranking, to verify if the +12 source is staying present and not dropping off. It should stay solid +12 while cranking.
From the ECU injector lead to frame ground also while cranking to see if the ECU can ground it enough to fire the injector. You should see the meter rise/fall from +12 to 0 as the engine turns and tries to fire the injectors.

[Jules]

Sorry to ask such a basic question, not sure if it's been asked as I've only skimmed the thread.

Does the fuel actually burn? The mech who used to work on an old sports car I had once told me about a car he was called out for, that wouldn't start. It had been stored for a few years, but all seemed fine otherwise. After hours of diagnostics, he worked out the fuel had gone bad. It wouldn't burn. He now recommends using fuel stabiliser if the car is going to sit for a long time.

Be careful if you do test this.

[PiotrK100]

FOUND THE PROBLEM!!
This allmost impossible, stil can't believe. All of you who guess that injectors may not working properly are .....right!!
In the Autumn engine was working without any major problem but after 100.000 km I decided to clean proffessionaly injectors and check them. So I found one known specialist who is dealing with injectors allmost 20 years and he clean up and check for any problems. Were very dirty but coil inside was in perfect condition. That was in Dezember as I remember, so since than I storage injector in plastic bag (without moisture) untill I mount them into the engine. End of story...
Now, injectors do not work, they keep them to try to "move" them in ultrasonic washer. Still I did not mount them but ALL four stuck!!!! So that was the issue. I did not take under consideration injectors as they were checked!
Anyway, thanks for all your help and I'm much more wise now as checked all electricity flow and fuel flow in the brick.
Another dissapointment was my gas tank, the guy who paint that wasnot less surprised than I was. So will repaint all, just must take out all the stuff and will loose new BMW decals.

[rbm]

Excellent.  Always a relief to find the problem.  :clap: :clap:

[Elipten]

So is it running?  Or you just know injectors are not working?  Maybe not the best solvents were used to clean the injectors?

What country are you located in?  Maybe others know reliable repair shops in your area.

[PiotrK100]

I'm living in Poland :neener:
That service,I'm talking about, is a fully professional and have special machinery and tool to maintain Diesel and gasoline injectors. So far we are 100% sure that all of mine injectors were not working since. He try to make them run for one hour while I was waiting and than he give up. But the fact is that I gave him a working injectors and expect to have back in same condition, or better because I pay for clean up. He must pay for everything!!!!! Will not count him my time (ALL YOUR TIME) and how much I was pissed.

[PiotrK100]

Robert, as we solved one pain in the ass problem pls do not forget about mine gear indicator. Also, will you please be so kind and point the socket under gas tank which I can connect additional gauge like temperature? Mean which gives a power while you turn the key in ignition.

[rbm]

Question for the brain trust:

Is it possible that the EFI unit can put out(sink actually) enough current to light an LED, but not enough to open an injector?  An LED only needs 4-5ma to flash.  A 5 ohm injector load across 12v is going to draw an instantaneous 2.5A.  Big difference...

I doubt that the injector driver circuitry would fail in a way that it is able to limit current flow above a few milliamps.  The drivers are usually high power FET or darlington BJTs, having high current capability, low on resistance and high beta characteristics.  These devices usually fail open because the collector-emitter or source-drain junctions sink too much current and the junction burns, blows like a fuse.  The high beta means the devices are digitally switching, not acting as linear amplifiers; the control circuitry upstream of the drivers can't fail in a fashion that puts the drivers into linear mode AFAIK.

Ok, Lets also think about the other side of the circuit as well. It's possible that the +12 source relay contact could be dirty/bad that can flow enough to light LED, but not strong enough to drive injector. 

The same relay is sourcing current for the fuel pump and temp sensing relay.  If the contacts were bad, there probably wouldn't be enough current to drive the fuel pump or make the temp sensing relay electronic work correctly.

[enb54]

Congratulations Piotr! I am likely not alone in thinking that this is the strangest thing, most unlikely to have all 4 injectors not operating with everything else OK. Very happy for you that you have solved the problem, I have owned fuel injected autos since 1976 (mostly Volvos) and have never had an injector failure. Anyway, good luck to you...

[PiotrK100]

Just got an information from injector service that my injectors are back to life and fully fuctionable. Tomorrow will be a "D" day and will try to fire up. But what the service man said is that he forgot to tell me to immerse injectors to the fuel if not use for few days. The fluid which is used to clean up cosed the injector needle to stuck.

[The Mighty Gryphon]

 :clap: :clap:

So very glad to hear you may be getting her to finally run.  Hope you enjoy the sound of your new muffler!!!

 :riding:

[PiotrK100]

All works perfect, engine starts after 3 seconds and I could hear the beautiful sound of my new muffler.

[dougrs]

awesome  :2thumbup: