Author Topic: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit. [SOLVED]  (Read 17858 times)

Offline HuckItForward

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Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit. [SOLVED]
« on: September 29, 2015, 05:41:08 PM »
'92 K75s, 16k miles, sat for a decade or so.

Aside from the gas tank internals, everything is in great shape and I'm almost done with repairs, maintenance, lube, etc.

Last piece of the puzzle is my blinkers. They don't blink.

They turn on, they cancel, the hazard switch has the same effect. Turns on, but doesn't blink.

Fuses and relays look good. Pulled casing off relay, looked pristine, solenoids magnetize perfectly, but don't release until cancelled.

My instinct tells me it's a grounding issue, but not sure where to start. Negative ground is cleaned, battery is new and fully charged.

Where should I check? Bulb sockets? Could it be the relay after all?

Sorry if this is obvious. I know electrical pretty well, but I normally work on Jeeps. Very different wiring philosophy.

Thanks!
  • Flushing, MI
  • '92 K75s
K75s w/ABS 16k miles
Bought it to save from being parted out, hoping to sell it onto someone who's looking for it specifically.

Offline jay1622

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2015, 09:10:27 PM »
Hey brother, "obvious" or not, somethings escape us all once in a while. Me? More often than not.  Skip this whole thing and read the last line if you want to see what I hope the fix is. Otherwise, read the whole thing for an exact understanding of your flasher unit. Cheers!



How does the central ground look underneath the gas tank that holds into the frame?  It should have five or six brown wires coming together with one little bolt going into the frame.  Does the turn signal indicator on the dash light up? I can't imagine it would make too much of a difference, but the turn signal indicator specifically calls for a 12 V 4 W bulb T8/4 type. Are the turn signal lights the correct ones?  Do you have a bulb monitor indicator light on your dash? Is that lit or staying off?  I don't believe those wires for the blinker indicators connect to the bulb monitor indicator so that should not be an issue, but figured I would ask just in case.

Going from the lights into the flasher unit, the left side flasher wire is blue/red and the right side flasher wire is blue black. If the the lights are lighting, then those two, to include the grounds for the lights should be fine. Make sense? The two right combined switch to the flasher unit wires are blue/yellow and brown/white: one for the right signal and one for the cancel button I guess. The left combined switch to the flasher unit wire is blue/brown. Once again, these must be good, right? The signal is being received after all. The blue/white and the yellow/violet(?) wires going into the flasher unit are both directly from the hazard warning flasher switch. So, that's seven wires of eleven, right? I think so anyway.

Remember when I said the lights themselves do not connect to the bulb monitoring indicator light? The flasher unit does; however, appear to ground into the bulb monitoring unit. So, the brown wire coming from the flasher unit goes directly to and grounds into the bulb monitoring unit FYI. So now, we know the ground for the lights are good, but I wonder how that ground is for the flasher unit. Thoughts?

Does your bike have auto canceling turn signals? The reason I ask is because the blue/green wire that comes out of the flasher unit wires directly to the speedometer. I can't imagine that would have anything to do with your indicators not flashing.

The green/brown wire goes to the temperature switch box. Don't ask me why, anybody care to guess out there?

And lastly, there is the red/white wire. I am hoping you write me back and tell me this is what it was. That wire, goes from the flasher unit directly to the fuse box.

 On my bike, the red/white wire goes into the slot 3rd down from the top.
  • Charlotte
  • Previous: 1986 K75S, 1977 R75/7, 1999 R1200C, 2003 R1150GS, 2001 F650GS, 2005 R1200RT... Current: 2005 R1200RT and my Brick, a 1988 K75S

Offline Scott_

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2015, 09:33:18 PM »
The green/brown wire is switched power from fuse #7. The same fused power that feeds the horn and other components.
  • My Garage
Ride safe.


1997 K1100LT 0302488
1995 K1100LT 0302044
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb

Offline HuckItForward

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2015, 10:46:02 PM »
How does the central ground look underneath the gas tank that holds into the frame?  It should have five or six brown wires coming together with one little bolt going into the frame.  Does the turn signal indicator on the dash light up? I can't imagine it would make too much of a difference, but the turn signal indicator specifically calls for a 12 V 4 W bulb T8/4 type. Are the turn signal lights the correct ones?  Do you have a bulb monitor indicator light on your dash? Is that lit or staying off?  I don't believe those wires for the blinker indicators connect to the bulb monitor indicator so that should not be an issue, but figured I would ask just in case.

Remember when I said the lights themselves do not connect to the bulb monitoring indicator light? The flasher unit does; however, appear to ground into the bulb monitoring unit. So, the brown wire coming from the flasher unit goes directly to and grounds into the bulb monitoring unit FYI. So now, we know the ground for the lights are good, but I wonder how that ground is for the flasher unit. Thoughts?

And lastly, there is the red/white wire. I am hoping you write me back and tell me this is what it was. That wire, goes from the flasher unit directly to the fuse box.

 On my bike, the red/white wire goes into the slot 3rd down from the top.

Thank you so much for the explanation! I've got the manual with the airing diagram and a couple online diagram, but that is way better.

The lights on the dash work perfectly and I don't think there is a bulb monitor light, but I'll double check in the morning. I looked at the ground that bolts into the transmission from the battery. I'll need to find the ground on the frame. Considering the pristine conditions inside the electrical box, I'm wondering if that might be the culprit.

I'll also make sure to check the connection to the bulb monitor and fuse and report back.

Thanks!
  • Flushing, MI
  • '92 K75s
K75s w/ABS 16k miles
Bought it to save from being parted out, hoping to sell it onto someone who's looking for it specifically.

Offline jay1622

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2015, 11:03:29 PM »
Start with the fuse. It's always the damn fuse. Well... Almost always. I found some worn-away insulation on a wire yesterday; I'm wondering if you've experienced a short perhaps on yours? I'll be re-friction-taping a bunch of wiring looms and such here soon.

Let us know.
  • Charlotte
  • Previous: 1986 K75S, 1977 R75/7, 1999 R1200C, 2003 R1150GS, 2001 F650GS, 2005 R1200RT... Current: 2005 R1200RT and my Brick, a 1988 K75S

Offline HuckItForward

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2015, 11:12:43 AM »
Another symptom I should probably add:
The rear left relay, the one that in this diagram is labeled as the fuel pump relay, clicks on and off continuously when power is on (key is turned).



Can you confirm that's a fuel pump relay?  Could a bad ground be clicking it on and off? I thought it didn't activate until the starter button was pressed and the starter and starter button work fine....

(Went to check things out on the bike this morning, but it's at a buddy's place at the moment and his garage was locked.  Wah Wahhhh.)
  • Flushing, MI
  • '92 K75s
K75s w/ABS 16k miles
Bought it to save from being parted out, hoping to sell it onto someone who's looking for it specifically.

Offline HuckItForward

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2015, 12:12:40 PM »
Oh, and I was hoping to pick up a couple new signal bulbs and fuses on my way home tonight so I could swap those out and verify function, but I've been having trouble finding that information online.  Anyone want to help out my lazy/impatient self by piping in with the bulb and fuse types so I can pick those up instead of having to grab them after making another trip to the bike to pull the existing ones?  :musicboohoo:

Edit: Changed strategy.  Looked it up on BMW motorcycle deal site, then cross referenced part numbers with BMW 3 series so I could find it at O'Reillys.
Bulb: 63217160789, aka Sylvania - Light Bulb Part # 7506BP
Fuse: ATO/ATC (various)
  • Flushing, MI
  • '92 K75s
K75s w/ABS 16k miles
Bought it to save from being parted out, hoping to sell it onto someone who's looking for it specifically.

Offline HuckItForward

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2015, 01:36:25 PM »
Talking to myself, but it helps.

Aha!  I didn't realize the pump was supposed to come on when you turn the key.  I thought it was just when you hit the starter (which didn't make sense to me because on the Jeep you need to pre-pressurize the fuel system, but hey...the mid-90s was a crazy time for automotive electronics).  My relay is is clicking on and off and on and off when I turn the key (I originally thought it was the signal relay, if that gives you an indication of speed).

So: Signals are fully lit, not dim at all, but not blinking.  This suggests a faulty flasher (unlikely) or a bad ground or fuse (#3 or #7) to the flasher unit.  The pump relay clicking suggests a bad ground or fuse (#1).

I will pick up some bulbs, because what the hell, but I no longer consider them a major suspect.  They look good and the above coincidence suggests a common culprit.

They both have a common ground, but not a common fuse, which suggests ground.  It's the ground on the frame, which I haven't checked yet, so that's suspect #1.
Suspect 2 is fuse #3 which powers both the flasher unit and the clock, which seemed really dim to me.
Additional person of interest is fuse #7 which powers both the flasher and horn relay.  Horn works, but might as well check it.
Probably going to replace all the fuses as just a preventative measure.

Anyone have any other ideas or things to test?
  • Flushing, MI
  • '92 K75s
K75s w/ABS 16k miles
Bought it to save from being parted out, hoping to sell it onto someone who's looking for it specifically.

Offline Inge K.

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2015, 02:32:29 PM »
Another symptom I should probably add:
The rear left relay, the one that in this diagram is labeled as the fuel pump relay, clicks on and off continuously when power is on (key is turned).
Can you confirm that's a fuel pump relay? 

The relay overwiew drawing in your post is for a 4V model.
On a 2V model (like yours) the rear left relay is the ABS warning lamp relay (blue housing).
It's normal that it goes on and off untill the ABS ECU have completed the self test (wheels must be turning).
.......
Fuel pump relay (+ other FI related) is left front.
  • Norway

Offline HuckItForward

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2015, 03:19:18 PM »
Another symptom I should probably add:
The rear left relay, the one that in this diagram is labeled as the fuel pump relay, clicks on and off continuously when power is on (key is turned).
Can you confirm that's a fuel pump relay? 

The relay overwiew drawing in your post is for a 4V model.
On a 2V model (like yours) the rear left relay is the ABS warning lamp relay (blue housing).
It's normal that it goes on and off untill the ABS ECU have completed the self test (wheels must be turning).
.......
Fuel pump relay (+ other FI related) is left front.

I was going to find a diagram to confirm I was asking about the right one, but apparently you answered my question in the thread with the picture I found!
http://www.k100-forum.com/t4462-cooling-system-issues

Thank you for that!  :clap:


(my ABS warning relay is actually black, so I assume it got replaced at some point, but it's definitely the one clicking)

So:
1 - Horn
2 - Load Shed
3 - Fuel Pump
4 - ABS warning
5 - Temp switch/fan relay
6 - Starter Relay
7 - Flasher Unit
8 - Bulb Monitor Unit
9 - ABS Power
10 - Empty for me and the picture, but normally contains...?

(Should the Relay Box layouts thread be updated to include 2V ABS I 75s?)


Currently the pump doesn't run when the key is turned, so I have an issue there as well, but you gave me some good starting points on that from another thread.  Ground is still my main suspicious, followed by fuses, but I'm glad I at least know what the clicking is, because I removed the relay it was unsettling me so much. I have continuity from the sending unit pigtail all the way to the (brand new) pump terminal, but no power at the connector, so if it still doesn't work once the ground is cleaned and fuses are replaced (and hopefully blinkers blinking) the next step will be checking power at the relay.

Really appreciate all the help, everyone!
  • Flushing, MI
  • '92 K75s
K75s w/ABS 16k miles
Bought it to save from being parted out, hoping to sell it onto someone who's looking for it specifically.

Offline HuckItForward

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2015, 10:37:15 PM »
    Ok, new information:

    Got to the bike tonight and replaced the bulbs and fuses and checked all grounds.  Clean as a whistle.

    A buddy was checking out the brake switches when I suddenly noticed something funny.  There were two lights on the side that flickered.  Took a closer look at the license plate bulb and....damnit.  LEDs.

    Turns out he put an LED running light and LED side brake flickering lights and wired them into the existing harness along with jumpering two pins on the Bulb Monitor Unit (stupid me didn't document which two, but if you're looking at it from the left side of the bike the paper clip(?) was briding two on the upper right hand corner.  I'm assuming this is the root of my issue, but how it manifested itself I'm still working out.

    Other facts learned tonight:
    The pump doesn't come on when the key turns, but it does work when you bump the starter.  Sigh of relief, but now I need to track down some wiring diagrams and figure out why that is.

    When I remove the brake light, the bulb monitor light doesn't come on, aka the BMU is busted.  Since this is the ground for the flasher relay, this seems a possible culprit.  Also, I have not yet seen the ABS light come on.  I imagine that's probably not right, either.

    I haven't gotten a chance to fully take a multi-meter to the relays yet, but I did check the fuse sockets.  I got some interesting results and I need to verify them against a wiring diagram.
    • When the bike is off and key is out, I still get power to #3 (just realized 3 is clock, so that kind of makes sense)
    • When the key is turned all the way to on, I get power to #1,#3, and #7
    • When all fuses are removed, I still have power to the illumination on the dash. Again, need to check the wiring diagram
    [/ list]
    I didn't have enough time to do extensive testing of fuses, but that's my initial findings.

    EDIT:
    Taking a look at this diagram, all those readings look correct, assuming no power should be coming from the FI relay with *just* key on.


My main question is, how would LEDs and the jumpering affect the flasher relay and BMU?[/list]
  • Flushing, MI
  • '92 K75s
K75s w/ABS 16k miles
Bought it to save from being parted out, hoping to sell it onto someone who's looking for it specifically.

Offline HuckItForward

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2015, 11:07:34 PM »
Crap.  Just had another brainstorm variables.

When I tested the fuse sockets, I got readings of between 10.8 and 11.6, but never above 12.  I assumed this was due to voltage drop through the lines and using a crappy voltmeter without a good connection, but I just realized I've been doing a lot of testing with lights on.  I haven't actually tested voltage between the terminals.

The previous battery has the same behavior, but it also was partially depleted.  I assumed this battery was good because it was new, but who knows how long it sat in a warehouse before being sent to me.

I think I need to put a trickle charger on it before making any drastic conclusions.
  • Flushing, MI
  • '92 K75s
K75s w/ABS 16k miles
Bought it to save from being parted out, hoping to sell it onto someone who's looking for it specifically.

Online kioolt

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2015, 11:10:28 PM »
It's not a bad idea to have the charger on it while you do your troubleshooting.  I do this if I don't suspect the battery as being the problem.
2018 R1200RT 8,000 miles,2004 R1150RT 189,000 miles
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles,1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the seat to the handlebars.

Offline Scott_

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2015, 07:06:39 AM »
Re the fuel pump/relay,
The newer 4V Motronic controllers will briefly energize the fuel pump when the key is turned on, the older 2V Jetronic ones don't.....

The jetronic controller determines when the fuel pump runs.
The pump relay is energized when the starter button is depressed, after the bike is running, (ie the hall sensors determine rotation) the ignition controller then keeps the pump relay energized.


Re your abs light:... did you plug your abs relay back in?   Otherwise a P.O. could have removed the lamp to mask an unknown abs issue.
  • My Garage
Ride safe.


1997 K1100LT 0302488
1995 K1100LT 0302044
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb

Offline HuckItForward

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2015, 08:42:59 AM »
Re the fuel pump/relay,
The newer 4V Motronic controllers will briefly energize the fuel pump when the key is turned on, the older 2V Jetronic ones don't.....

The jetronic controller determines when the fuel pump runs.
The pump relay is energized when the starter button is depressed, after the bike is running, (ie the hall sensors determine rotation) the ignition controller then keeps the pump relay energized.


Re your abs light:... did you plug your abs relay back in?   Otherwise a P.O. could have removed the lamp to mask an unknown abs issue.

Perfect, I was hoping there might be differences between mine and what I was reading. One problem eliminated, then.

I was wondering if the ABS light might be out or removed last night because the diagnostic definitely runs, judging by the clicking relay. And I finally realized last night I could quiet the relay by hitting the ABS button on the dash, so that behavior is normal, I believe.  I'm wondering if he took out the bulb monitor light when he swapped the LEDs and took out the ABS light while he was at it.

Lastly, I have a yellow light on the dash that lights up when I pull in the clutch. That's normal, right? I can't find anything about a clutch indicator, so please tell me it's another model specific thing and its not my ABS or low fuel light with an issue.
  • Flushing, MI
  • '92 K75s
K75s w/ABS 16k miles
Bought it to save from being parted out, hoping to sell it onto someone who's looking for it specifically.

Offline Inge K.

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2015, 09:44:28 AM »
Lastly, I have a yellow light on the dash that lights up when I pull in the clutch. That's normal, right? I can't find anything about a clutch indicator, so please tell me it's another model specific thing and its not my ABS or low fuel light with an issue.

Then the switch connectors for the clutch and choke switches have been interchanged.
(identical switches and connectors, connectors you find under the fuel tank, left side).
  • Norway

Offline HuckItForward

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2015, 09:47:49 AM »
Lastly, I have a yellow light on the dash that lights up when I pull in the clutch. That's normal, right? I can't find anything about a clutch indicator, so please tell me it's another model specific thing and its not my ABS or low fuel light with an issue.

Then the switch connectors for the clutch and choke switches have been interchanged.
(identical switches and connectors, connectors you find under the fuel tank, left side).

Ok, that makes sense. I was thinking they got rid of that by '92. Cool. I kinda wanted that light.
  • Flushing, MI
  • '92 K75s
K75s w/ABS 16k miles
Bought it to save from being parted out, hoping to sell it onto someone who's looking for it specifically.

Offline Inge K.

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2015, 10:16:38 AM »
I was thinking they got rid of that by '92.

Choke switch isn't present anymore, but the wiring and connector for it at the harness is.
  • Norway

Offline HuckItForward

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2015, 12:12:01 PM »
Ok, swapped the two connectors and the the light doesn't come on with the clutch or with the lever (because it doesn't have a switch).  It does, however, activate some sort of solenoid in the intake area, by the sound of it.  That is the correct behavior as I understand it.

I checked voltage across the terminals when I first got there and got 12.0, but after a few minutes of lights on and testing, I was getting more in the 11.7 to 11.4 area, so I threw the trickle charger on it.

Before the charger, though, I was getting very different readings between the voltage across the battery terminals, the voltage across fuse terminals, and from the positive fuse terminal to the negative battery terminal. (I'm trying to narrow down issues before or after the fuses).

Once I finish trickle charging, I'll have a better place to start testing voltage on specific circuits.
  • Flushing, MI
  • '92 K75s
K75s w/ABS 16k miles
Bought it to save from being parted out, hoping to sell it onto someone who's looking for it specifically.

Offline RobP

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2015, 12:48:33 PM »
Quote
My main question is, how would LEDs and the jumpering affect the flasher relay and BMU?

LED's don't have enough resistance to trigger the flasher.  Did you try swapping them with traditional incandescent bulbs?
  • Driftwood, TX
  • 1985 K100RS

Offline HuckItForward

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2015, 12:55:23 PM »
Quote
My main question is, how would LEDs and the jumpering affect the flasher relay and BMU?

LED's don't have enough resistance to trigger the flasher.  Did you try swapping them with traditional incandescent bulbs?

I did, but the LEDs were only on the brake lights and the running light, which shouldn't have any connection to the flasher relay, but I should probably double check the wiring diagram anyhow.
  • Flushing, MI
  • '92 K75s
K75s w/ABS 16k miles
Bought it to save from being parted out, hoping to sell it onto someone who's looking for it specifically.

Online kioolt

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2015, 02:54:12 PM »
Quote
My main question is, how would LEDs and the jumpering affect the flasher relay and BMU?

LED's don't have enough resistance to trigger the flasher.  Did you try swapping them with traditional incandescent bulbs?

LED's have too much resistance to trigger the flasher.  That's why resistors are put in parallel to them to lower the resistance.
2018 R1200RT 8,000 miles,2004 R1150RT 189,000 miles
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles,1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the seat to the handlebars.

Offline HuckItForward

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2015, 11:37:44 AM »
Ok, so battery is now fully charged and reading 12.6v between terminals.

Across the fuse terminals, however, #3 gives me 10.2 and #7 (when key is on) gives me 11.2 or something along those lines. Those are *big* drops.

From the positive fuse terminal back to battery negative, though, is around 12.2v, so if there's an issue, it lies between the fuse and the ground.  I didn't have much time for diagnostics tonight, so that's all I've checked, but next steps will be jumping the frame ground to battery to make sure the frame -->transmission --> battery connection is fine and, if it is, testing voltages at various points along the circuit.

Before I go digging too deep, though, does anyone know if those readings are actually a problem? If it was a switch or a bulb, I know it would be, but when you get into circuit boards with resistors and switched grounds, etc, I don't know if I should actually be getting full voltage between the terminals.

Anyone want to quick to a voltmeter to fuses #3 and #7 for me?
  • Flushing, MI
  • '92 K75s
K75s w/ABS 16k miles
Bought it to save from being parted out, hoping to sell it onto someone who's looking for it specifically.

Offline HuckItForward

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2015, 12:45:21 PM »
Ok, so it's been a while, but I'm ready to start back up on this.

As of last night, she is officially running!!!!


Which is very awesome considering this is what I started with:



Got a ton of smoke when first started, but that's cleared up and she runs beautifully.

So despite my fuel system being terrible, the rest of the bike matches my splines:

(That's right, be jealous)

So despite the bike running great and the electrical internals looking fantastic, I still have the following electrical issues:
  • Turn signals stay on, and don't blink (haven't tested auto-cancel yet)
  • Bulb monitoring unit doesn't warn me when a light it out
  • No ABS light despite relay clicking continuously
  • Speedometer doesn't work (but tachometer does)
  • LCD screens in dash and dim beyond usability
[li]No low fuel light, despite ebay unit that was supposed to be good and has continuity all the way to connector)

[/li][/list]

So, could these all be related? Or did the salt air where it was stored wreak havoc on some connections I can't see (everything looks pristine)

Thoughts?
  • Flushing, MI
  • '92 K75s
K75s w/ABS 16k miles
Bought it to save from being parted out, hoping to sell it onto someone who's looking for it specifically.

Online kioolt

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Re: Blinkers don't blink. Just stay lit.
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2015, 01:10:18 PM »
I believe the bulb monitoring unit only monitors the tail and brake light.  I may be wrong.  Someone in the know please chime in.
2018 R1200RT 8,000 miles,2004 R1150RT 189,000 miles
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles,1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the seat to the handlebars.

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