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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => Project Classic Motobricks => Topic started by: brichbk on July 13, 2018, 08:55:51 PM

Title: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on July 13, 2018, 08:55:51 PM
I am beginning to rebuild my 1993 K75RT after a fire around the throttle body area.  You can see the whole story here http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,11273.0.html (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,11273.0.html).

Here is my plan
Stage 1:  Clean up after the fire. 
Stage 2:  Replace burned Parts
Stage 3:  Replace other parts that were needed pre-fire

Stage 1 is beginning.
Any suggestions on what I need to do to clean up after the fire? 

My biggest concern is that I'm pretty sure water and fire extinguisher residue got into the engine through the fuel injector holes and possibly through the throttle bodies. The throttle bodies were covered by the air box intake chamber so may not have gotten stuff in it.

Will I have to open up the engine to clean it or will it be enough to  just change the oil? (See Pictures)

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-130718202429-1475192.jpeg)

The rest of the exterior has cleaned up pretty good.  I have a small dime size (about 17 mm) white spot on the gas thank that I think I can get some touch up paint to fix.  It is located behind the fairing so it won't show.

I appreciate all the help that this great group can provide.


Step 2 not yet started, currently sourcing parts:
Here are the parts I'm need to replace:
Post-Fire

Step 3 not yet started:
Pre Fire

Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Martin on July 14, 2018, 02:00:57 AM
You can downsize the nozzle of your shop vac with a reducer kit or by taping various bits of hose together . You could then attach a piece of 3/8" nylon hose the vacuum cleaner. I would fit a piece of white "T" shirt type material between the built up bit and the standard vacuum cleaner hose. Stick the 3/8" into the spark plug hole one at a time and wiggle it about and observe what has been caught in the cloth. Once you have no debris in the cloth you can then decide if you want to pull the head.

Regards Martin.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 04, 2018, 12:37:05 AM
After a bulging spinal disc and needing to replenish my motorcycle fund I am finally ready to start the rebuild.  I've got my table of parts all set out.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-041018002529-1746702.jpeg)

and starting tomorrow this empty cavity will start to get filled with throttle body, air box, new fuel hoses, new control cables, and repaired and replaced electrical wires and connectors.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-041018002330-17451237.jpeg)

First up will be connecting the clutch cable, throttle cable, and cold weather assist cable (choke) connected to the appropriate controls on the handle bars.  Then I'll start with the throttle body, fuel regulator, fuel hoses, and keep working my way up.  Then I plan on tackling the electrical wires and connectors.  Lastly I plan on replacing the radiator fan with a new Spal fan.

Wish me luck.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 04, 2018, 08:56:30 AM
How did you fasten the table to the wall? Did you use pushpins or duct tape to fasten the parts to the table?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 04, 2018, 11:47:27 AM
How did you fasten the table to the wall? Did you use pushpins or duct tape to fasten the parts to the table?

good old JB Weld :P
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 04, 2018, 11:08:45 PM
Throttle Cable Question:

I'm installing the new throttle cable and I'm thinking that the metal sleeve should fit inside the housing, but it doesn't seem to fit.  The old cable didn't go into the housing but I'm not sure if it was correct or not.  Is the grooved part in the picture supposed to fit inside the housing or does it just slide in like in the picture? 

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-041018225820-17491347.jpeg)
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: johnny on October 05, 2018, 09:37:59 AM
greetings...

is the new cable oe bowden or other...

j o
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 05, 2018, 10:17:01 AM
greetings...

is the new cable oe bowden or other...

j o

I got it from my local BMW dealer and the tag says "Accelerator Bowden Cable".
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 05, 2018, 10:55:07 AM
The flange of the sleeve is flush to the outside of the housing on my K75. Be certain you have the throttle tube gear and cable gear marks in alignment. What is the cable's part number? There are differing lengths for handlebar style.  32731457378 is for a high handlebar like yours appears to be.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 05, 2018, 02:55:14 PM
The flange of the sleeve is flush to the outside of the housing on my K75. Be certain you have the throttle tube gear and cable gear marks in alignment. What is the cable's part number? There are differing lengths for handlebar style.  32731457378 is for a high handlebar like yours appears to be.

I double checked the part number and it was the correct cable and got the cable installed and adjusted.  Now on to the wiring fixes before I put all the hardware back in.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 05, 2018, 03:50:06 PM
Wire repair question:

I'm patching a good ignition coil wiring harness into my existing main wiring harness.  Each coil connector has a green/yellow wire (3 in total) and another color wire.  There are 8 total wires that need to be patched together (5 different colored wires and 3 green/yellow).  My question is this, does it matter which green/yellow wires are connected together as long as it is green/yellow to green/yellow?

Here is a pic of the wires alongside a picture of 2 of the 3 coil connectors.

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-051018154156-1750502.jpeg)
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 05, 2018, 06:54:24 PM
I double checked the part number and it was the correct cable and got the cable installed and adjusted.
Now that you have the cable installed and know the answer, perhaps you will answer here the question you asked here so you can help others who might come along with the same question.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 05, 2018, 08:13:09 PM
Now that you have the cable installed and know the answer, perhaps you will answer here the question you asked here so you can help others who might come along with the same question.

Yes, it installs flush to the outside of the housing like you said.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 06, 2018, 01:11:08 AM
Wire repair question:

I'm patching a good ignition coil wiring harness into my existing main wiring harness.  Each coil connector has a green/yellow wire (3 in total) and another color wire.  There are 8 total wires that need to be patched together (5 different colored wires and 3 green/yellow).  My question is this, does it matter which green/yellow wires are connected together as long as it is green/yellow to green/yellow?

Here is a pic of the wires alongside a picture of 2 of the 3 coil connectors.

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-051018154156-1750502.jpeg)

I looked at the wiring diagram in my Chlymers manual and for all versions of the K75 it shows the green/yellow wires all meeting up before going into the ignition module EXCEPT the K75 1990-On RT model diagram.  The RT model diagram shows the Green/Yellow wires as a black square (see pic below), what does that black square mean? 

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-061018010240-17522110.jpeg)
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 06, 2018, 09:02:42 AM
The RT model diagram shows the Green/Yellow wires as a black square (see pic below), what does that black square mean? 
In your diagram, the G/Y wires power the coils; the B/L, B/R and B/G wires trigger the coils and the second B/L wire on coil #1 sends impulses to the tachometer creating a rev count. The Br indicates ground connection. Each coil must have current supplied by a G/Y wire. To me, the black squares would indicate a connection terminal. 

In the attached diagram, the G/Y wires proceed to the coils from a junction—the black dot—as you have described from other diagrams.
There can be production variations.

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/1601-061018084615.png)


Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 06, 2018, 03:33:03 PM
In your diagram, the G/Y wires power the coils; the B/L, B/R and B/G wires trigger the coils and the second B/L wire on coil #1 sends impulses to the tachometer creating a rev count. The Br indicates ground connection. Each coil must have current supplied by a G/Y wire. To me, the black squares would indicate a connection terminal. 

In the attached diagram, the G/Y wires proceed to the coils from a junction—the black dot—as you have described from other diagrams.
There can be production variations.

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/1601-061018084615.png)

Thanks Laitch. That was very helpful.  And exactly what I was hoping to hear.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 06, 2018, 03:44:10 PM
Finished up the electrical work on the FI harness and the main harness today. The only electrical I have left to work on is the ABS connection wire.

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-061018153513-17542280.jpeg)

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-061018153513-17542174.jpeg)

Up next is putting the throttle body, air plenum, air box, fuel rail, injectors,  oils, the FI wiring harness and new fuel lines.  Now to figure out what fuel lines connect to what.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 07, 2018, 07:30:35 PM
Where does this ground wire connect?  It looks to be about a 10 gauge wire. I can’t read the part number but it must be somewhere in the engine compartment area. Any ideas?

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-071018192556-1757896.jpeg)
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 08, 2018, 02:12:48 PM
Where does this ground wire connect?  . . . it must be somewhere in the engine compartment area. Any ideas?
That's a hard one, as the nun said to St. Peter at the Pearly Gates. I'd want to know where its other end attaches.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 08, 2018, 06:58:02 PM
I checked the Max BMW parts fiche and I could not find where this cable connects. Here are a few ideas:
It connects from the starter to the battery
It connects from the coil bracket to the battery
It connects from the started to the coil bracket
It connects from the starter to the ?
It connects from the battery to the ?
It connects from the coil bracket to the ?

The only things that I removed that have mounting screws to metal are the coils, the starter cable on the starter terminal, and the battery. Everything else is made of plastic other than the fuel rail and I’m pretty sure the fuel rail doesn’t have a ground cable.


Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 08, 2018, 07:15:15 PM
How are you checking for continuity?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: bocutter Ed on October 08, 2018, 07:24:36 PM
"It connects from the battery to the ?"

Is that the battery to ground (transmission) cable?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 08, 2018, 08:28:39 PM
"It connects from the battery to the ?"

Is that the battery to ground (transmission) cable?

It is not the main ground. That cable is much bigger and still connected to the transmission. This one must be an alternate ground.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on October 08, 2018, 10:52:58 PM
I don't know if it is stock, but my K100RS has a ground cable from the battery negative terminal to the ground point under the tank along with the ground cable that goes to the transmission.

I'm not sure, it's been a long time, but my K75 RT may also have a ground from the battery negative to the point under the tank as well.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 09, 2018, 09:48:07 AM
I don't know if it is stock, but my K100RS has a ground cable from the battery negative terminal to the ground point under the tank along with the ground cable that goes to the transmission.

I'm not sure, it's been a long time, but my K75 RT may also have a ground from the battery negative to the point under the tank as well.

I checked out the area  under my tank this morning.  I don't see anywhere that a ground cable would connect to.  I don't see any screws into the frame.  Any guesses on where under the tank it might connect to?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 09, 2018, 10:08:41 AM
I've been working on the assumption that my mystery wire is a ground wire.  But what if it isn't.  I found a picture of my positive terminal pre-fire.  It shows 3 connected wires to the positive terminal.  The main positive from the wire harness, a battery tender, and another wire (although it looks different than the picture above).


(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-091018095825-1763339.jpeg)


I don't have heated grips or an electric windshield and no other aftermarket add ons to hook up to the battery.  As it looks right now the only things connected to the battery are the main positive from the wire harness and the main ground.  Should there be anything else?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on October 09, 2018, 11:57:08 AM
Look for a cluster of brown wires under a bolt on the left side of the frame about half way back from the steering head to the seat.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 10, 2018, 01:25:07 AM
Look for a cluster of brown wires under a bolt on the left side of the frame about half way back from the steering head to the seat.

Thanks Gryphon.  I found it.  So does the ground wire connect from the negative terminal to that bolt on the frame?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 10, 2018, 06:20:17 AM
It will connect to the bolt if the wire's ring terminal will fit over the bolt shank. Another question to ask is where is its other end?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 10, 2018, 09:44:30 PM
It will connect to the bolt if the wire's ring terminal will fit over the bolt shank. Another question to ask is where is its other end?

Where it connects is a great question.  I"m planning on taking it down to my local dealer and ask if they can help me figure it out.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 10, 2018, 09:48:27 PM
I'm coming up on the last few parts (fuel rail, injectors, coils, and plug wires). 
In the picture below can someone confirm the following?

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-101018214027-17661168.jpeg)
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 11, 2018, 04:10:29 PM
Where does this ground wire connect?  It looks to be about a 10 gauge wire. I can’t read the part number but it must be somewhere in the engine compartment area. Any ideas?

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-071018192556-1757896.jpeg)

I took this cable to the my local dealership and their best guess is that it is from the CDI to the battery.  They said it was the "box up by the neck of the bike".  I looked and I see my CDI box and all I see is the wire harness that comes out of the box.  But the length isn't right, the cable would be too short to reach from the CDI to the battery. 

What's the risk if I just leave the cable off the bike?  Although I'm growing more convinced that it's a ground from the battery to the ground screw under the tank.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 11, 2018, 05:21:11 PM
Although I'm growing more convinced that it's a ground from the battery to the ground screw under the tank.
What convinces you of that—testing, process of elimination, consulting I Ching? In wiring your moto, you seem to be demonstrating haphazard technique similar to the method of injector testing that landed you here in the first place. Strive to have understanding and logical reasons for actions being taken. A wiring diagram and a multimeter for testing continuity by using resistance should be in play here.

A ground wire from the battery leading to a common ground connection should be brown in an OEM harness, according to the wiring diagram. Is one of those wires fastened to the battery ground connection at its other end, or is nothing fastened anywhere? What did you take to the dealer for examination, that section of harness? The wiring diagram shows a brown wire from the battery to a common ground. Does your battery's ground post have a brown wire leading from it? If it does, check for continuity between that point of the wire and the terminal you've pictured.

The battery's ground connection wire to the transmission is black.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 12, 2018, 02:24:50 PM
I found where that ground wire goes.  It connects from the ground under the tank to the ground on the gear box.  I found another thread on here that showed the exact wire and where it goes. 

I've now got all the electrical hooked up and replaced all the fuses with new ones.  All the dash lights work, indicators work, brake light works, and headlight works.

I followed the steps here (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,3781.0.html) to install the fuel injectors and to make sure that they don't leak (no leaks detected).  I can hear the fuel pump working and I can see fuel returning to the tank.

I removed the spark plugs, cleaned and checked the gaps.  I checked for spark on each by grounding it to the engine and pushing the start button.  Each plug has spark. 

I tried to start the bike but it won's fire.  I pulled the #1 spark plug and it was wet with fuel.

So now I have to solve my no start problem.  Off to search the forum for solutions.



Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 13, 2018, 01:44:56 AM
I went through the steps in the "No Start-Slow Start-Whackness". 

Which should I do next?

Here's a video of what the bike sounds like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LBK14VtO4Q
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Martin on October 13, 2018, 02:12:31 AM
Check the temperature sensor and it's connection. If one or the other is faulty it can cause flooding and failure to start.

Regards Martin.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on October 13, 2018, 05:56:45 PM
I have found that if a cold engine doesn't start immediately it will flood.  Continued cranking exacerbates the problem.  If you suspect flooding, disconnect the four pin tank connector to disable the fuel pump and attempt to start.  This will blow the excess fuel out of the cylinders, and with a bit of luck, it may fire once or twice as the last of the fuel is removed.

Then reconnect the pump and try to start again. 

Another thing to try is adding a bit of oil to the cylinders to help get better compression.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DerHlx-bO0s
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 13, 2018, 06:13:24 PM
I have found that if a cold engine doesn't start immediately it will flood.  Continued cranking exacerbates the problem.  If you suspect flooding, disconnect the four pin tank connector to disable the fuel pump and attempt to start.  This will blow the excess fuel out of the cylinders, and with a bit of luck, it may fire once or twice as the last of the fuel is removed.

Then reconnect the pump and try to start again. 

Another thing to try is adding a bit of oil to the cylinders to help get better compression.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DerHlx-bO0s

I saw that video and tried that method as well to blow the excess fuel out.

I haven't tried the oil in the cylinder yet.  Do I just squirt about a table spoon of oil in the spark plug hole? 
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: johnny on October 13, 2018, 06:43:14 PM
greetings...

do you reccommend convectional oil in the cylinder or that cynthetic oil...

j o
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 13, 2018, 07:38:02 PM
I saw that video and tried that method as well to blow the excess fuel out.
I haven't tried the oil in the cylinder yet.  Do I just squirt about a table spoon of oil in the spark plug hole?
The video Gryph posted and that you've copied into your post shows you how to use the oil and tells you how much oil to use.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 13, 2018, 08:53:45 PM
The video Gryph posted and that you've copied into your post shows you how to use the oil and tells you how much oil to use.

My apologies to Laith and Gryph, I thought I had watched that video but it was this one I watched last night, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTb0sEmXheA.  Looks like the same bike and he talks about a flooded engine.  I apologize for not watching the video you posted and jumping to a conclusion.

I followed Chris's instructions and put in just under 10cc's of oil in each cylinder.  Cleaned and reinstalled the spark plugs and wires.  But the bike still didn't start.  Although it did spit out some nice smoke rings.  You can view them below.  I cranked the bike over until it stopped smoking and then cranked it for about 20 seconds with the fuel pump disconnected at the tank to to try to clear the cylinder of fuel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY1SVp827AE
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 13, 2018, 09:00:52 PM
Check the temperature sensor and it's connection. If one or the other is faulty it can cause flooding and failure to start.

Regards Martin.
Thanks Martin.  I'll look up some instructions on how to check the temperature sensor and connection and post back.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 14, 2018, 08:49:22 PM
It RUNS!!!

I tried the method mentioned by "Paul Mihalka" (5th post down) from the this post on advrider, https://advrider.com/f/threads/k75-wont-start.658520/.  It idles with the "clutch" throttle advance on the first setting like in the video below.  It requires a little throttle (less than about a 1/4 throttle) or needs to be on the second setting of the "choke" to start, but it starts consistently.  It needs a TB balance to smooth it out.

Thanks for all the help and advice so far.  I'm not ready to declare it road worthy yet but it's a whole lot closer than it was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzkrgAKBiIA
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 22, 2018, 02:29:27 AM
An update on the bike progress.

I got it starting and running consistently.  I had a significant air leak at the intake manifold added some gasket sealer and that took care of the air leak.  But it is idling smoothly.  I took it down the street to get some fresh gas and it ran smooth.

I tested the water temp sensor #10 & #13 pin on the EFI plug and it measured at 2.06 K ohms at about 70F/21C.  I think it seems a little low but is close to the 2.5k ohms I see posted.  Is that close enough or does that indicate I should replace the temp sensor?  I will need to pull the radiator to replace the fan soon so i can easily do the sensor at the same time.

 I still need to check the valves and balance the throttle body.

Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: rbm on October 22, 2018, 06:41:37 AM
This one measurement seems ok.  I measured a brand new sensor's overall response and published the results as an Excel file (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,11299.msg98562.html#msg98562).  At 21C, i measured 1,756 Ohms.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 22, 2018, 07:27:39 PM
Measured my Valve Clearances and here are the values I got.
Intake: 1) .13mm  2) .15mm  3)  .13mm
Exhaust:  1) .10mm   2) .10mm  3) .05mm

Those valves look pretty tight.  Looks like I need to pull a shim and take a look at it.

I measured all of them like the #2 exhaust with the lobes sticking straight out like in the picture below.

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-221018192430-17871335.jpeg)
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 22, 2018, 09:19:20 PM
Measured my Valve Clearances and here are the values I got.
Intake: 1) .13mm  2) .15mm  3)  .13mm
Exhaust:  1) .10mm   2) .10mm  3) .05mm Looks like I need to pull a shim and take a look at it.
Look pretty tight is an understatement! There is something radically wrong with your exhaust valve clearance numbers. The exhaust valve clearances should measure between 0.25mm and 0.30mm. Being 0.15–0.20mm too tight is recipe for rapid engine failure. Two of the intake clearances are tight and need adjustment but are not unreasonably tight like the exhaust valve clearances.

I'll look on the bright side and believe your technique is flawed or that I've wandered into an episode of Black Mirror. I can't tell anything by your photos. You seem to acknowledge that the nose of each cam lobe should be pointing outward more or less in line with its valve's stem when the clearance is measured. Which instructions are you using? Have you carefully viewed Harris's video? Are you using the special tools?

Remeasure. If you get the same results, you'll need to do more than pull a shim. You'll need to pull five shims and measure each with a micrometer to figure each replacement shim's thickness.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 22, 2018, 09:40:55 PM
I'll look on the bright side and believe your technique is flawed or that I've wandered into an episode of Black Mirror. I can't tell anything by your photos. You seem to acknowledge that the nose of each cam lobe should be pointing outward more or less in line with its valve's stem when the clearance is measured. Which instructions are you using? Have you carefully viewed Harris's video? Are you using the special tools?

Remeasure. If you get the same results, you'll need to do more than pull a shim. You'll need to pull five shims and measure each with a micrometer to figure each replacement shim's thickness.

I'm really hoping my technique is flawed.  Below is a video of me measuring the #2 exhaust, maybe you can find something wrong with what I did.  I watched Chris Harris' video and I followed the directions in my Clymers manual, maybe I missed something.  When I first did the measuring the bike was in neutral and the manual says to do it 5 gear.  So, I put it in 5th gear and re measured everything and got the same results.

I do not have the special tools yet, I did send Ken an email asking if he's still selling them and that I'm interested in buying a set. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_X4uUfMozY
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 23, 2018, 02:54:28 PM
I'm really hoping my technique is flawed.
. . . I put it in 5th gear and re measured everything and got the same results.
The only technique flaw I notice so far is that you’re buckling the measuring blade when taking the measurement. Choke up on it to the greatest extent possible.

If the cam lobe’s nose is in the correct position, it doesn’t matter whether the bike is in gear or not. Being in gear just allows rotation of the camshaft by rotation of the rear wheel instead of by wrench leverage on the camshaft flats like Harris is doing.

This tight valve situation might explain one of the reasons why the engine in your other video sounds to me like it's weak, and why your moto had performance problems from the beginning—intake leaks not withstanding. It's why a valve clearance check is the earliest of tasks to do on any used moto purchase rather than jumping from symptom to symptom first when engine performance is weak but riding desire is strong.

I urge you to obtain the shim/bucket tools for the procedure despite others here having used alternative methods because you need any advantage you can get at this point to help you. Maybe there is somebody near you who could mail them to you on loan.  They don't take up much envelope space.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 23, 2018, 04:55:50 PM
Thanks For the feedback, Laitch. I agree that the valve issues might be the issue behind all the other issues.

 I ordered the tool this morning from Ken Lively so later this week I can work on getting the shimms out and measuring them to find new ones.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 29, 2018, 01:31:18 PM
I got all the valves adjusted with new shims using the Ken Lively tool (which worked great).  The intake valves are all at a .20 mm clearance and the exhaust are all at .25 mm for clearance.

I can confidently say that it seems like the bike is back to the pre-fire state.  That is the good news.  Now the bad news.

I went to balance the throttle bodies with my new Motion Pro manometer only to have the #3 cylinder do nothing.  #1 & #2 both adjust and the fluid goes up and down when the throttle is turned.  I tried switching the vacuum lines around on the manometer and throttle bodies and no changes, which ever hose is on #3 doesn't register.  So I switched the #1 and #3 injectors and no changes, #3 still doesn't register on the manometer.  I confirmed spark on all spark plugs and even switched #1 & #3, still no change.  It appears that my #3 cylinder is not functioning (no compression?).

I borrowed my friend's compression gauge and plan on checking compression on all my cylinders tonight.   Is there another thing I should check?


For reference here is my original post on the same issue, http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,11083.msg96575.html#msg96575 (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,11083.msg96575.html#msg96575).
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 29, 2018, 04:15:44 PM
Which balance procedure instructions are you using?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 29, 2018, 04:41:34 PM
I was following the instructions in my chlymers manual and from the Motion Pro instructions.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Martin on October 29, 2018, 05:27:55 PM
Remove the adjusting screw and check for blockages.
Regards Martin.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 29, 2018, 06:20:09 PM
Remove the adjusting screw and check for blockages.
Regards Martin.

Thanks Martin, am I correct in assuming the adjustment screw is the brass screw?  I’ll check that out while I wait for my battery to charge up. 
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 29, 2018, 07:39:13 PM
am I correct in assuming the adjustment screw is the brass screw? 
You shouldn't be assuming anything while doing this procedure or any other. Fig. 61 on page 245 in my Clymer's show the air bypass screws to adjust. Fig. 60 shows the screws not to adjust. The two different screw types look distinctly different.
 :yippee:
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/1601-291018193124.png)

 :grimreaper:
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/1601-291018193241.png)
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on October 29, 2018, 07:52:18 PM
+1 on Martin's suggestion to remove the brass balancing screw.  You probably have some crap in the orifice.  Shoot some carb cleaner into the orifice that the screw goes into and try balancing again.. 
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 30, 2018, 01:21:33 AM
So removed each adjustment screw one by one and cleaned out each orifice.  The #3 was definitely dirtier than #1 & #2.  Reran the test and it didn't seem to make a difference.  #3 still isn't showing up on the manometer.  Could it be a clogged vacuum pipe/nipple on #3 (the hose that connects to the fuel pressure regulator)?  Should I pull the throttle bodies to be able to give the adjustment screw orifices and the vacuum connections a better cleaning?

I ran out of time to do the compression test on the cylinders, so that still needs to be done.

I read a post that referenced pulling the plug wire while the bike is running to check to see if the cylinder is firing or not.  Is this something I should try or is it bad for the ignition system?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on October 30, 2018, 09:13:51 AM
Could it be a clogged vacuum pipe/nipple on #3 (the hose that connects to the fuel pressure regulator)? 

I strongly suggest you clean out that nipple.  Lots of carb cleaner and compressed air.  Stick the red tube in there as far as you can. 

Was the bike running before the fire?  If so, I would say the compression is good.  If you suspect a stuck ring, then I would suggest putting a pint of Marvel Mystery Oil in the crankcase.  I had a K100RS with a stuck oil control ring that was making the bike burn a lot of oil.  The Marvel Mystery Oil freed it up in less than a thousand miles.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 30, 2018, 10:39:09 AM
Was the bike running before the fire? 
The coils were replaced in May. The moto seemed to be idling ok. brichbk stated it ran like a bat out of hell but it still wasn't satisfactory so he did the injector spray test and that's when the fire started. Cylinder #3 has shown problems since the beginning of this epic. It is also the cylinder that had the tightest clearance according to brichbk's measurements.

The attached image shows what appears to be a missing vacuum cap at cylinder #3 and much debris #3's injector opening so clog possibilities exist. Because that cylinder seems to have a history of malfunction, I would do a compression test, or leakdown test asap.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/1601-301018102830.jpeg)

Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 30, 2018, 11:34:12 AM
The coils were replaced in May. The moto seemed to be idling ok. brichbk stated it ran like a bat out of hell but it still wasn't satisfactory so he did the injector spray test and that's when the fire started. Cylinder #3 has shown problems since the beginning of this epic. It is also the cylinder that had the tightest clearance according to brichbk's measurements.

The attached image shows what appears to be a missing vacuum cap at cylinder #3 and much debris #3's injector opening so clog possibilities exist. Because that cylinder seems to have a history of malfunction, I would do a compression test, or leakdown test asap.

Laitch, what you say is correct.  The picture you posted was after the fire so the "missing vacuum cap" is actually the melted vacuum hose.  But #3 was definitely the dirtiest after the fire to clean up.  I'll do a compression test later today and I'll work on cleaning of the vacuum nipple.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 30, 2018, 04:24:49 PM
Just finished the compression check and here are the results:
Cylinder 1 — 145
Cylinder 2 — 150
Cylinder 3 — 0 (less than 10)
Added 8cc of oil and remeasured #3 — 0 (less than 10)

Test was done on a fully charged battery, wide open throttle, warmed up engine, and screw in compression gauge.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 30, 2018, 05:33:05 PM
Just finished the compression check and here are the results:
Cylinder 1 — 145
Cylinder 2 — 150
Cylinder 3 — 0 (less than 10)
Cylinders #1 and #2 are on the cusp of the high-normal and low-good ranges according to BMW's 2V manual. Continued operation of this engine could have broken the #3 exhaust valve or dropped its valve seat then ruined the engine entirely so there's still some good luck surrounding this situation. Depending upon the condition of the head when it has been removed and inspected, the head might be repairable. Used heads are available, of course.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 30, 2018, 07:13:17 PM
Cylinders #1 and #2 are on the cusp of the high-normal and low-good ranges according to BMW's 2V manual. Continued operation of this engine could have broken the #3 exhaust valve or dropped its valve seat then ruined the engine entirely so there's still some good luck surrounding this situation. Depending upon the condition of the head when it has been removed and inspected, the head might be repairable. Used heads are available, of course.

So, what I'm hearing from you is that it's possibly not at a catastrophic stage and is possibly repairable, is that correct?  Next steps would be, remove and inspect the head, and valves? That would definitely be new territory for me.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 30, 2018, 07:47:36 PM
So, what I'm hearing from you is that it's possibly not at a catastrophic stage and is possibly repairable, is that correct? 
How could I have made my statement more clear?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 30, 2018, 08:12:18 PM
How could I have made my statement more clear?

Sorry Laitch, I'll try not to irritate you with worthless questions. 

I'm reading through this site http://www.bmw-k100rt-page.eu/manual/Engine/contentEngine.htm (http://www.bmw-k100rt-page.eu/manual/Engine/contentEngine.htm) to get an idea of what is all required to check out the heads.



Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 30, 2018, 08:38:52 PM
Sorry Laitch, I'll try not to irritate you with worthless questions. 

I'm reading through this site http://www.bmw-k100rt-page.eu/manual/Engine/contentEngine.htm (http://www.bmw-k100rt-page.eu/manual/Engine/contentEngine.htm) to get an idea of what is all required to check out the heads.
You're probably looking for confirmation about all this. Maybe somebody else here will chime in, one way or the other.

Inspecting the cylinder head will take somebody with general automotive or motorcycle repair and machining experience. Start looking for somebody that can inspect it. A BMW specialist won't be necessary at this point.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on October 30, 2018, 09:20:49 PM
If you decide to remove the head, try to get a pneumatic impact wrench.  You will also need a special heavy duty torx wrench to break the head bolts loose.  I tried to do mine with a breaker bar.  What an appropriately named tool!  I broke one of the bolts off just below the surface of the block.

The special Torx wrench is a different size and shape from the regular ones.  If you don't use it, you will probably bugger up the head of the bolts. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TEMO-IP-50-3-Long-Black-Impact-Torx-Plus-6-point-Socket-Bit-1-2-Square-Drive/132204305289?epid=1339458897&hash=item1ec7fd9b89:g:K~MAAOSwrVRbWd5E:sc:USPSFirstClass!14052!US!-1:rk:11:pf:0

The head bolts are under a lot of torque, and there is a chance of corrosion on the threads.  An impact wrench is the gentlest way to break them loose.  Wish I had used it when I did mine.  Would have saved me an extra two weeks of work trying to remove and helicoil a broken off hardened bolt.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: caveman on October 31, 2018, 04:40:12 AM
With the correct torx-PLUS bit and a hammer impact a few sharp blows should free bolts with less chance of damage. If you do use air impact turn down the pressure (start with 30 to 40 psi), most gun run wide open in reverse and can snap off bolts faster than a breaker bar.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on October 31, 2018, 09:34:16 AM
Thanks Caveman and Gryph for the advice.  Anyone have any more advice before I start in on this project?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on October 31, 2018, 11:08:43 AM
Do your research concerning the shop that will analyze the condition of the cylinder head.
Read instructions for disassembly and assembly from beginning to end a couple of times before starting this project. Review instructions from two or more sources if possible and reconcile any differences in them before starting this project.
Don't assume anything.
Exercise patience.
Wear knee pads.
Have a headlamp available.
Have a telescopic magnet available.
Wear mechanic gloves when wrenching although scarred hands increase street cred while riding the bus.
Thoroughly clean all surfaces involved in disassembly.
Photograph assemblies before and during disassembly.
Organize and label disassembled parts.
Label wiring.
Be certain to verify when to use a standard Torx bit or Torx Plus bit.
Use a heat gun to heat stubborn fasteners first then use penetrant on them. Knock them with a hammer a couple of times, wait a few minutes then attempt to loosen them. Repeat.
Don't assume anything.
Exercise patience.
Take a break from frustration.
Clean all surfaces thoroughly before reassembly.
Use a high quality torque wrench for reassembly and follow tightening sequences explicitly.
Exercise patience.
Take a break from frustration.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on October 31, 2018, 01:37:44 PM
I pulled the head off of my K100 in the winter.  Parking the bike on a 6'x8' chunk of plush carpet made working on the floor infinitely more pleasant.  It cushions under your knees and insulates you from the cold floor.  I do all my work with the bike parked on the rug.

Buy a box of zip lock sandwich bags and a Sharpie marker.  As you take things apart put fasteners and small parts in the bags and label the bag for where they came from.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Martin on October 31, 2018, 04:08:50 PM
+1 on Sharpies and Zip Lok bags. Take pictures with your phone or camera. I bought a piece of 30mm thick closed cell foam to kneel or lie on.

Regards Martin.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: riots100 on October 31, 2018, 05:37:48 PM
Pulling the cylinder head isn't that hard to do, as mentioned by others, the issue is to keep all the parts and pieces together.  Zip lock bags and the camera-phone helps to get things back together in proper order.

To pull the head, you will have to pull the timing chain sprockets on the camshafts.  It is important that you note which cam the timing chain sprocket came from as they will have to go back on the same camshafts.

So careful documentation of disassembly will greatly help in re-assembly.

A while ago I had to do a partial engine rebuild that included cylinder head removal and reconditioning.  It is documented here:
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,7661.0.html
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on November 10, 2018, 01:35:09 AM
I started the engine disassembly today (pics below).  Got all three engine covers removed (crankcase, camshaft, and valve), removed the radiator, exhaust and muffler as a single unit.  I suspect that it will take twice as long to put everything back together simply because every screw and piece needs a good thorough cleaning.  Tomorrow I'll start to separate the blocks.

Valve side with cover removed.  I looked up into the valve exhaust ports to see if I could see the valves, but I couldn't really see anything of detail.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-101118011446-18231772.jpeg)

Crankcase side with cover removed.  Took a peek at the connecting rods and they look straight and not bent. 
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-101118011456-18332045.jpeg)

Camshaft (front) with cover removed.  Notice the dirty water pump fans blades (?)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-101118011446-1823170.jpeg)

Inside of exhaust headers.  Notice the carbon build up in each except #3
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-101118011452-18322146.jpeg)

Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on November 11, 2018, 04:29:34 PM
I removed the cam chain, both cams from the valve side only to find that my torx plus 50IP bit doesn't fit the mounting bolts holding the valve side of the engine block.  So, thinking that it's a T45 I borrow a friends torx set to check the size only to find that the standard torx 50 fits the bolt. My understanding is that these bots were supposed to be Torx Plus but they look to be just Torx.  Any have any thoughts?

Torx or Torx Plus?
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-111118161633-18472040.jpeg)

Torx T50 inserted in bolt head
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-111118161631-1847362.jpeg)

Torx T50 vs Torx Plus 50IP (I'm holding the T50)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-111118161637-18491554.jpeg)
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on November 11, 2018, 07:37:25 PM
I got my heads off and found my #3 exhaust valve was bad.

edit:  anyone have a good spare exhaust valve?

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-111118181409-18501314.jpeg)

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-111118193314-18521736.jpeg)

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-111118181410-1850639.jpeg)

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-111118193322-18541890.jpeg)
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on November 12, 2018, 03:07:09 PM
I'm looking into options for getting my valve issue fixed.  Right now I'm looking at 2 options.

Option 1:  Cost $200-$400  I took the head to a machine shop today and was quoted around $200 (probably 2 hours of labor) to have all 6 valves reseated and the head cleaned.  They said I should replace my exhaust valve guides as well.  So I'm looking at the cost of guides, seals, and an exhaust valve plus the machining costs.  He also said that the exhaust valve isn't anything special, but that it's pretty standard and I may be able to find one for a lot less ($10-20) that doesn't come in a BMW box, the same thing for the valves and seals..  Does anyone have any experience with non-oem valves, guides, and seals for the K75? 

Option 2:  Cost $250-$350  Get a different head in working condition ($140-$200) and have the cylinder head and engine block milled flat so they can mate up snuggly.  The machining for that would be about $110.

Are there other I could look at or things I should be considering that I haven't considered yet?  Do you think one option is better than the other?

Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: CNRED on November 12, 2018, 04:11:17 PM
check your messages
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: riots100 on November 12, 2018, 04:16:21 PM
I would go with option 1.  The original head with the original block.  New valves seats, guides, etc. seems like a good option given the condition of that one valve.  While you got things torn apart as you have, I would pull the crankcase cover and check the condition of the connecting rods and crankshaft.

Any idea what would cause a valve to deform like that?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on November 12, 2018, 05:57:00 PM
I would go with option 1.  The original head with the original block.  New valves seats, guides, etc. seems like a good option given the condition of that one valve.  While you got things torn apart as you have, I would pull the crankcase cover and check the condition of the connecting rods and crankshaft.

Any idea what would cause a valve to deform like that?

The guy at the machine shop said that either tight valves or the valve guide was little loose and that would have prevented the valve from seating tightly and could have caused the damage.

The connecting rods look ok, although I haven't removed them just looked at them with the crankcase cover off.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on November 12, 2018, 06:17:28 PM
From the photos, I would guess that it was way too tight, and never adjusted to the proper clearance.  (This thread should serve as a warning to anyone who doesn't think they need to adjust their valves, this is why you do it.)

Unless the engine has way over 100,000 miles, I would just get another (used) exhaust valve, lap it and put everything back together.  I seriously doubt that the guides and seals were damaged by a leaking exhaust valve, so unless I had a bunch of cash I needed to get rid of, I'd just replace the bad part.

Of course, I would be checking the other valves for damage, and replace any that were bad, but I'll bet this is the only one since I think you said the compression in the other two cylinders was still good.  The only other parts you will need are a head gasket and some shims for the valve adjustment.  (I'll bet all of the other five are tight as well.  Did you check them before you pulled the head?)
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on November 12, 2018, 07:47:22 PM
Of course, I would be checking the other valves for damage, and replace any that were bad, but I'll bet this is the only one since I think you said the compression in the other two cylinders was still good.  The only other parts you will need are a head gasket and some shims for the valve adjustment.  (I'll bet all of the other five are tight as well.  Did you check them before you pulled the head?)

posted back post #45
Measured my Valve Clearances and here are the values I got.
Intake: 1) .13mm  2) .15mm  3)  .13mm
Exhaust:  1) .10mm   2) .10mm  3) .05mm
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on November 12, 2018, 10:20:42 PM
All of your exhaust valves were WAY TOO TIGHT!   

Check them carefully for signs of burning.  Sitll, I think that replacing the burnt one and lapping it should get you running again.  While you're at it you might as well lap all the others.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on November 18, 2018, 02:29:55 AM
I found some m10x135 bolts I could use for the cylinder head bolts that are $1.99 per bolt rather than $11.98 per bolt.  The difference is the inexpensive ones are hex head rather than torx. Would it be bad to use hex head rather than torx?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Martin on November 18, 2018, 03:36:20 AM
You need to make sure the proposed bolts are of the correct grade.
Regards Martin.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on November 18, 2018, 06:20:53 AM
I found some m10x135 bolts I could use for the cylinder head bolts that are $1.99 per bolt rather than $11.98 per bolt.  The difference is the inexpensive ones are hex head rather than torx. Would it be bad to use hex head rather than torx?
To echo Martin here, the bolts have grade markings on their heads. Replace them with bolts of the same grade and type. Cutting corners on the grade of fasteners should not be considered. This isn't a bathroom vanity cabinet.

It was known that all valves clearances were too tight long before this point in the thread. A negative effect of those tight clearances wasn't evident in the compression numbers for cylinders #1 and #2. The condition of those components is unknown but the cylinders
seemed to be functioning appropriately according to the numbers. Being this far into the head presents the opportunity for the entire valve train to be evaluated in person by experienced technicians.

You could stop further evaluation and just treat the obviously defective parts and nothing else if you're feeling lucky.

Well, are you?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: CNRED on November 18, 2018, 06:26:41 AM
I believe I would echo Martin and Laitch sentiments. Used the proper head bolt. Cutting corners here will result in blown head gaskests, over heating and valve issues to name a few. After all the hard work you have put onto this bike to this point, it must makes good sence to put it back together with the proper parts.
Do it right or do it again..
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on November 18, 2018, 08:29:25 AM
What is wrong with the old cylinder head bolts?   As far as I know, BMW doesn't require using new bolts when reinstalling the head.

As the others have said, if you do replace them, you need the same grade as the old ones.  These bolts are under a lot of stress and need to have a very controlled amount of stretch to prevent blowing the head gasket and/or warping the head.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on November 27, 2018, 11:46:13 PM
Update:  I bought another head on ebay for $104 shipped.  I rented/borrowed a valve spring compression tool from a local auto parts store and removed all the valves and bits and put them in separately labeled baggies.  I'm all ready to take my original head to the machine shop to get the valves reseated and put back together with new seals.  While that's getting worked on I can remove the old gasket and clean the mating surfaces and work on getting all the other parts cleaned and ready to reinstall.  I've been reading that acetone is a good thing to use to clean the surfaces, any other suggestions?

Is this the next right step for the head after the machine shop to:
install the cams and adjust the valve clearances before I reinstall the head on the bike?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Martin on November 28, 2018, 01:17:38 AM
Single edged razor blade in a holder, degreaser and green scouring pads. Keep the blade at a shallow angle to prevent gouging the surface.
Regards Martin.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on November 28, 2018, 09:22:03 AM
As far as assembly of the head, I guess it's six of one, half dozen of the other.  Personally, I would have the machine shop lap and assemble the valves and springs.  I would assemble the head to the block followed by the cams, chains and chain guides.  Once everything is assembled, I would check the clearances. 

Is the machine shop installing new valve seats?  I hope so, because that is the major wear point in the head.  If you are on a tight budget, at least do the exhaust seats.  Those are the most critical, and wear the fastest.  New seats will bring the head to almost brand new status.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on December 11, 2018, 03:49:08 PM
Just got my cylinder head back from the machine shop.  It looks beautiful.  All valves reseated, new valve stem seals, 3 new valve guides, and the head cleaned and painted.  Now to put it all back together.

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-111218154132-1876946.jpeg)

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-111218154128-18762381.jpeg)

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-111218154139-18821733.jpeg)

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-111218154142-18827.jpeg)

Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on December 11, 2018, 03:52:19 PM
Holy Mackerel, that's pretty!!!
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: natalena on December 11, 2018, 08:27:24 PM
Gorgeous! It's always a shame to reassemble something that looks so nice exposed. They should make "skeleton backs" like on watches, so you can see everything moving.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on December 11, 2018, 08:37:23 PM
Reinstall question:  When reinstalling the camshaft and journals the chlymers manual says to use "molydbenum disulfide grease" and apply it to the underside of the crankshaft bearing journals.  I have some Sta-Lube SL3331 engine assembly lube with moly graphite already on hand, can I use that instead?  I also have disk brake bearing grease but I'm thinking the assembly lube would be better. 

Here's a link to what I have, https://www.amazon.com/Sta-Lube-SL3331-Extreme-Pressure-Assembly/dp/B000M8RYUE/ref=asc_df_B000M8RYUE/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312181776237&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13435478275904665978&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032277&hvtargid=pla-623685627567&psc=1
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on December 11, 2018, 09:06:12 PM
Be careful about how much assembly lube you use.  I can't say for sure, but on the second ride after I did some head work using moly assembly lube(a bit extravagantly I have to admit) the sprag failed to engage and I had to do an engine flush to get it to work again.

A very thin film should do the job.  It only needs to lubricate until the oil reaches the bearings.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: natalena on December 12, 2018, 07:10:34 AM
A very thin film should do the job.  It only needs to lubricate until the oil reaches the bearings.

I have not rebuilt a K motor; however, have blueprinted a 320i. A take-away from a dealership mechanic was to "use the lube delicately with a light touch, and do not let anything "float" on lube." Got pretty anal with this process of the build. Good Luck, and assembly Sta-Lube should be fine.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on December 12, 2018, 04:11:08 PM
Got pretty anal with this process of the build.
Probably a good thing the engine was cold. :giggles
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: natalena on December 12, 2018, 05:16:11 PM
Probably a good thing the engine was cold. :giggles

Oh baby, but that camshaft was hot!  ;)
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on December 14, 2018, 02:27:48 PM
Looking for a little confirmation about how to install the timing chain and camshafts to make sure they line up properly.  I've been using my chlymers manual and the instructions on this page (http://www.bmw-k100rt-page.eu/manual/Engine/ReassemblingEngine_32.htm) to do the reinstalls but I'm just a little unsure.  Based on the video below it shows I have to install the cams with the #3 lobe pointed away from the valve and after all the journals are installed then I rotate the camshaft so that the sprocket cut out aligns properly with the head.  Then to install the chain I need to loosen the sprocket so that there is "wiggle room" to get the chain on.

start at 4:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyDcz_Z4Oas
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on December 15, 2018, 09:29:52 PM
Had a very productive day.  Got my engine put back together, radiator and new fan installed and wired up, the throttle body installed, throttle and throttle advance cables adjusted, airbox installed, spark plugs and wires, new oil & coolant.  All that is left is to hook up the gas tank, battery and EFI, and to double check my clutch cable.  Those last few will have to wait until tomorrow.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: John Lang on December 16, 2018, 07:11:51 AM
As has been suggested, could the ring terminals on your mystery wires attach to the ground point on the central tube of the frame under the tank? See #9 on p.2 of 'Bert's Bible' as per the link in johnny's post: http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,5067.msg31282.html#msg31282 (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,5067.msg31282.html#msg31282)

You do not say where the invisible ends of the wires in your photo lead to. Were the ring terminals we can see attached to the battery to power a USB power plug or similar?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on December 17, 2018, 03:37:39 PM
Good News!  The bike starts and runs.  I have compression on all three cylinders (1-145, 2-150, 3-145) before the valve job I only had 8psi on #3.  The throttle response is much better than it was before.  I have an air leak at the TB boots so I'm pulling the TB boot and reinstalling them with some gasket sealer to seal up the leak.  I had a heck of a time getting the TB clamps oriented correctly the first time so they didn't interfere with the throttle linkage.  But a quick search and this thread came up to help me out, http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,10235.msg87216.html#msg87216.  I should be able to get the Throttle body put back together later today then I'll need to balance the TB and I will be good to go.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on December 17, 2018, 04:24:30 PM
 :yippee: :yippee: :clap: :yippee:

        :clap:

          :clap:     :yippee:
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on December 18, 2018, 10:36:56 AM
Reinstalled the throttle body and tested for air leaks, no air leaks!  So I took the bike for a 10 mile ride last night and it ran great.  I still have a couple of minor tweaks but for the most part, the bike is done.  Thank you to all of you who have helped me get this K bike back on the road.  Thank you for enduring my mistakes, questions, and doubts.  I've learned a lot and I appreciate each and every one of you.

I am excited to say, "the Phoenix has risen and taken flight".
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on January 23, 2019, 04:30:31 PM
I think my head gasket might be leaking coolant into my engine oil.  It's been about 200 miles since I got the bike running again.  Here's what I noticed and what I've done about it so far.

I first started noticing white smoke out of the exhaust when I first started the bike but after it was warmed up the smoke would stop.  I store the bike on the center stand in the garage overnight.

So, I started watching the oil level.  I didn't really notice anything until this week.  The bike has sat in the garage on the center stand for the past 8 days or so.  When I went out the other day I was looking the bike over and noticed that my oil sight glass showed that the oil level was above the 3/4 mark.  When I added oil I made sure it only went to halfway up the sight glass.  The week or two after the bike was running I checked the oil level and it was always about halfway up the sight glass.  I put Mobile1 20w50 in the engine after the cylinder head repair.

Today I decided to drain the oil to see what it looked like.  The oil has only been in the engine for about 200 miles.

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-230119153603-1921543.jpeg)

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-230119153600-19217.jpeg)

It looks murky and kind of an olive greenish brown color.

I drained the coolant and it looks clean and it was pretty full.  Before I drained the coolant I opened the fill cap and could see coolant in the system.  I have also noticed that my coolant reservoir is at about !/4 full when it was just over half when I first added coolant after the repair work.

What do you think, does it look like coolant is getting in the engine oil?
I was reading up on some posts and one post suggested removing the oil pan, putting coolant in the radiator and seeing if it comes out through the crankcase.  This was to see if the engine block was cracked.  I don't think that is the case, but I'm willing to try this if it is necessary.
What other things should I check if the head gasket is leaking?

Note:  when I reinstalled the cylinder head I torqued everything to spec and did the two-stage torque that the manual calls for and cleaned the mating surfaces (but perhaps I didn't clean them good enough).

Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: daveson on January 23, 2019, 09:29:57 PM
Often recent work is the cause of a problem.
If your lucky it might be a simple problem.

Could be a leaky seal between oil and water pump.

Could be a loose head bolt. If any bolts are loose shortly after they have been tightened,  they are probably stretched and weakened, you can measure the length,  a stretched bolt may be just 0.2 mm longer. I have to admit I didn't read all posts in this problem.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: daveson on January 23, 2019, 11:40:04 PM
After refilling coolant there can sometimes be a certain amount of self bleeding, lowering the coolant level,  but that would have happened before 200 miles. If the coolant level dropped at the same time as the oil level raised, it's not looking good.

If a head bolt is loose,  tighten it, if it becomes  loose again replace it, and the others related to that cam.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: daveson on January 23, 2019, 11:45:41 PM
It is a good sign that it seemed to be good for 200 miles and that you are monitoring it closely.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: daveson on January 24, 2019, 12:03:01 AM
Are there bubbles in the coolant, oil in the coolant or condensation in the exhaust the same colour as your coolant?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Martin on January 24, 2019, 12:23:06 AM
 Do a compression test and compare the cylinders. The condition and colour of the spark plug may also show signs.
Regards Martin
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on January 24, 2019, 02:34:39 PM
Thanks Daveson and Martin for your replies.

Martin: I'll check the spark plugs tomorrow and report back.  After I got the bike put back together I did a compression check on all the cylinders and they read (1-145, 2-150, 3-145) after I put the engine back together.  After I put oil back in the engine I will do another compression test.

Daveson:  the short story of this long thread is that I had a burnt exhaust Valve in #3 cylinder and had a valve job done and had to reassemble the engine.  I installed a new head gasket when I did the reinstall.  I like the idea of rechecking the cylinder head bolts before removing the cylinder head to check the gasket (and possibly having to buy a new one).  I think I might have time to do that this weekend.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: daveson on January 24, 2019, 03:14:22 PM
Although not mentioned in clymer's it common that a new gasket compresses and needs to be re torqued after say 600 miles, yours may have done so earlier than I would have thought. It depends on the manufacturer of the gasket read their instructions as well as workshop manual. Some claim that they never need to be re torqued, but I ignore that because gaskets are not the only cause of gasket failure.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on January 25, 2019, 02:57:04 PM
I pulled the plugs and this is what they look like.  The electrodes have a green tiny to them.

(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/5663-250119145341-19242356.jpeg)
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: daveson on January 25, 2019, 03:55:02 PM
I have read all these posts now,  ignore my advice of which bolts to replace, l forgot these cams interfere.


I think it's a safe bet your coolant is green and your head gasket is leaking.

Did you follow all the instructions, e.g. waiting waiting 20 minutes before final torque.

Are the bolts head bolts? New? What was your final torque setting?

A good outcome is still possible.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on January 25, 2019, 04:06:50 PM
Do a leak down test. That might help isolate the location of the problem. Green indicates coolant leakage if your engine's coolant is green.

Watch this entire video. Interpreting the procedure's results begins around minute 4:10. Contact O'Reilly, AutoZone or NAPA to see if you can borrow the necessary tools with only a deposit and no charge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC1EZCxDnLc
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on January 25, 2019, 04:22:23 PM
I have read all these posts now,  ignore my advice of which bolts to replace, l forgot these cams interfere.


I think it's a safe bet your coolant is green and your head gasket is leaking.

Did you follow all the instructions, e.g. waiting waiting 20 minutes before final torque.

Are the bolts head bolts? New? What was your final torque setting?

A good outcome is still possible.

I did do the 2 stage torque procedure waiting 20 minutes before the final torque. I reused my head bolts rather than buying new ones.

At this point checking for a loose bolt is a smaller step than having to remove the cylinder head. To check the head gasket. But I’ll do whatever is necessary.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Martin on January 25, 2019, 04:34:38 PM
There is a test that checks for exhaust gases in the coolant. The test kit is pretty dear, however a good automotive workshop should be able to do the test for a price about $50.00 AU the last time I heard.
Regards Martin.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on January 25, 2019, 06:00:26 PM
At this point checking for a loose bolt is a smaller step than having to remove the cylinder head.
So is doing a leak down test or an exhaust test with loaned equipment from the outfits that were recommended.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: daveson on January 25, 2019, 07:23:40 PM
After seeing your spark plugs I'm now thinking (actually hoping) that most of the bolts are loose due to the gasket compressing.  That could explain why the smoking disappears when the engine warms up as the head expands from the heat,  closing the gap.

If you set your wrench to 33 ft. -lb. I would check them again at that,  but if none of them move that doesn't mean they are still at 33 because it takes more force to start the movement while already torqued if close to the final setting.  I would then try again at 36.

I have previously saved cars, with leaking head gaskets, from the wreckers by tightening from just 2 to 5 Nm over the maximum torque specified, but I almost never go beyond a workshop manual.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: daveson on January 25, 2019, 07:28:42 PM
Hopefully you have the socket that allows you to torque the bolts without removing the cams,  which would make this check and or adjustment a quick thing to do.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: daveson on January 25, 2019, 10:32:42 PM
I like the look of the coil cover after the fire, if I were you I would keep that on.

It's a reminder of the resilience of you and your bike.

It's a war wound you could wear with pride.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on January 25, 2019, 11:25:09 PM
So is doing a leak down test or an exhaust test with loaned equipment from the outfits that were recommended.

Thanks for the video link. I will work on getting the loaned equipment this weekend.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on January 25, 2019, 11:29:34 PM
Hopefully you have the socket that allows you to torque the bolts without removing the cams,  which would make this check and or adjustment a quick thing to do.

The torx socket I have the shaft is just a bit to short to use it without taking off the cams.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on January 26, 2019, 01:39:10 AM
Were the screws clean and dry, or clean and lubricated at installation?
Were you fastening these screws using foot pound values or Newton meter values?
Is your torque wrench a click-type having a foot pounds scale on one side of its shaft and a Newton meters scale on its opposite side, or is it a beam-type that has both foot pound and Newton meters on its scale face?
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on January 26, 2019, 02:13:12 AM
Were the screws clean and dry, or clean and lubricated at installation?
Were you fastening these screws using foot pound values or Newton meter values?
Is your torque wrench a click-type having a foot pounds scale on one side of its shaft and a Newton meters scale on its opposite side, or is is a beam-type that has both foot pound and Newton meters on its scale face?

The screws were clean and lubricated with oil when I installed them.

I used foot pound values.

I have a click type torque wrench with pounds on one side and newtons on the opposite side.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: daveson on January 26, 2019, 01:35:13 PM
If you want to keep the bike long term,  it would be worth considering the long socket as head bolts should be checked before measuring valve clearance as a part of routine maintenance.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on January 26, 2019, 01:50:09 PM
    •    The head mating surface should have been verified for flatness.
    •    The mating surfaces needed to be thoroughly clean at the time of coupling. Material from the head's being set on a table or floor could have been transferred to its seam from those surfaces then have affected sealing.
    •    A lightly lubricated screw will exert more force at a given torque value than a clean, dry screw—approximately 10–15% greater force.
    •    If close attention isn't paid during the procedure, the wrong torque scale can be used. If the Nm scale were used mistakenly, setting it at 33 would result in lubricated screws being tightened to approximately 26—28 ft. lbs. This can happen from distraction and/or from unfamiliarity with the tool.
    •    If the head has been dropped somewhere along the line, a crack in the head could have been created.
    •    The combination pump seals could be faulty.

A check with the oil pan removed while filling the radiator with coolant could help be helpful determining the source of leaks. The oil pan and the oil pickup screen should be cleaned because of this contamination regardless.

What seems to have been asserted by you is that approximately two ounces of coolant found their way from the coolant reservoir into the oil pan during eight days of idleness. That seems an unusual scenario given the relationship of the reservoir coolant to the radiator in a stone cold engine.

The tests for combustion gas in coolant, and leak down tests are relatively uncomplicated.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on January 26, 2019, 01:52:11 PM
. . . as head bolts should be checked before measuring valve clearance as a part of routine maintenance.
That isn't part of a typical valve clearance check on these engines.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: daveson on January 26, 2019, 02:19:36 PM
I'm still hopeful

A lot of these worrying signs could have a simple explanation. The exhaust smoke after start up doesn't worry me,  could be water in nooks a crannies from putting out the fire. Also the oil level on mine is higher seven days after a ride than one day,  probably those nooks and crannies again.

There is still good reason to hope that the bolts are simply loose.

I didn't want to mention it this early but after the good options are all exhausted I would ask how confident can we be that all the previous gasket material was removed from the block,  preventing the new gasket from sticking  (the head is clean)
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on January 26, 2019, 02:40:03 PM
I'm still hopeful . . .
Who isn't hopeful? There is still investigation being pursued here.(https://imgfast.net/users/4211/29/48/93/smiles/610153.gif)
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: daveson on January 26, 2019, 03:04:26 PM
I mean I hope the head doesn't have to come off. I'm curious if there are bubbles in the coolant,  if so,  is it only when the engine is cold.  Also after a ride can bubbles be heard while the engine is cooling. If there are bubbles it's a given that at least the gasket is leaking.

It's a shame but I have seen cars with leaking head gaskets go to the wreckers that may have been fixed with five minutes work by tightening the head bolts.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: daveson on January 26, 2019, 03:38:42 PM
I should have said checking head bolts is a part of my routine maintenance.

It is not a part of routine maintenance.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: Laitch on January 26, 2019, 03:41:09 PM
. . . I have seen cars with leaking head gaskets go to the wreckers that may have been fixed with five minutes work by tightening the head bolts.
Luke 4:24  :giggles
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: daveson on January 26, 2019, 03:47:08 PM
Good one. ( had to look that one up)
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: brichbk on April 24, 2019, 08:04:07 PM
So I found the solution to my coolant leaking into my oil problem.  I performed the leak down test and it didn't indicate a leak.  So I decided to check my water pump and found both seals were toast.  The oil seal came out in 3 pieces and the water seal was also in bad shape.  I replaced both seals and for the past 2 weeks, there haven't been any leaks inside or outside the bike.
Title: Re: Phoenix Rising - '93 K75RT Fire Recovery
Post by: daveson on April 25, 2019, 04:15:19 AM
Well done.

It's always a bonus to hear of a good result. Prob good to continue with an eye on it,  as a lot here have had to fix the pump twice.