Author Topic: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.  (Read 40865 times)

Offline Laitch

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2016, 10:20:59 PM »
You're creating a useful pictorial essay, gone_ape.
 
Looking forward to hearing a YouTube presentation of your throttle blipping after the procedure, which would seem to indicate a stark lack excitement in my life right now that I had better correct.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2016, 07:28:06 AM »
Thanks Ape!  Your illustrations are perfect!  Now even I understand what I was trying to explain.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline gone_ape

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2016, 08:58:40 PM »
Thank you Laitch and KennyB... You've heard of a "20 yard car" (looks great from 20 yds away), same with my garage !!!  Cans of brake cleaner go a long way to getting that look....Laitch, your posts almost always bring the chuckling guffaw!!!
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  • 94 K75RT (Now Standard)

Offline gone_ape

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2016, 09:35:11 PM »
Got a little further.....and still don't have much of a conclusion...so:
Pushing/pulling/twisting the clutch hub (sans clutch pack) revealed nothing 'abnormal'... I stuck a pick in between the  Gear Wheels to see if I could get anything to move..solid, no movement... So I took Gryphon's  advice to clean the output shaft to gear wheel mating surface and reinstall the trans back in the bike.....
  • Austin, TX
  • 94 K75RT (Now Standard)

Offline gone_ape

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2016, 09:42:43 PM »
I made a another stupid vid showing the output shaft's "play" withe the clutch hub removed.. First time I took the hub off I was a little alarmed at the play in that shaft..A lot of searching on these here forums finally revealed this to be a normal event as per factory manual on page 11-38 state's as follows:




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  • 94 K75RT (Now Standard)

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2016, 09:45:09 PM »
I think you would have better results cleaning the face of the balance shaft if the spoosh tube on the cleaner was straight.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline gone_ape

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2016, 09:47:08 PM »
So that a continuance of Laitch's stark lack of excitement remains at the forefront, I dedicate this vid to him ....

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  • 94 K75RT (Now Standard)

Offline gone_ape

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2016, 09:51:19 PM »
I actually did both.....I had 2 cans of the cleaner, one bent tube the other straight.  I experienced epic fail by not taking pics of both...let the flogging begin.........
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  • 94 K75RT (Now Standard)

Offline kennybobby

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2016, 12:17:26 AM »
i think you may have found the source of the knocking sound--that just seems too loose like the driveshaft notches that hold the gear tabs are worn out.

i read that note as a loose sliding fit of the bearings on the shaft, instead of a tight press fit--meaning that you don't need a bearing puller to remove the bearing and gear, they will just slide off (or fall off the end and hit your foot if you don't pay attention). 

But even with a sliding fit of a bearing on a shaft there should not be that much radial motion...?
Ridin' 87 K75S vin 1334,
Renchin' 86 75S vin 0061

Offline gone_ape

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2016, 11:31:48 AM »
KB.... Interesting, very interesting.  One of the things I tried to observe was the 'sliding fit' of the clutch hub to gear wheel combo....completely rudimentary and done only by hand and by rocking and twisting the hub with the nut off.  There really wasn't much discernible play let alone slop in that assy. Perhaps a 'little' is all it takes and as Gryphon mentioned earlier, his experience was down to thickness of oil film and possible stretch in the balance shaft materials....

I'm no engineer, just a pea brain, but the audible tone of rattling that output shaft around in the video was pretty close in 'clack' frequency to what I think I'm hearing when the engine is running.
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Offline gone_ape

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2016, 11:36:20 AM »
My next question to you all:
Only those with a K75, please as the the K100 has a different arrangement....When you've had your clutch hub off - how much slop or play did the balance shaft have??
  • Austin, TX
  • 94 K75RT (Now Standard)

Offline Laitch

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2016, 11:52:48 AM »
My next question to you all:
Only those with a K75, please as the the K100 has a different arrangement....When you've had your clutch hub off - how much slop or play did the balance shaft have??
My bike can have the same noise as yours, gone_ape. When I performed input shaft lube service, the amount of play didn't register—not surprising given my current graceful decline—but after reassembly with the correct torque values, there's no discernible difference in the amount of rattle it has been producing in the last 35K miles. The engine will produce it if it's lugged or moving off the line at very low revs in first gear.

Gryph seems to have gotten positive results though with his cleaning-torquing technique. If I outlive this clutch disk, I'll pay closer attention when I—or my nursing assistant—replace it.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles

Offline kennybobby

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2016, 12:48:49 PM »
When the clutch hub is inserted into the output shaft spline, then the radial motion of the hub is constrained by the oil seal and the large bearing on the balancer shaft that is clamped by the engine cases (main crankcase casting and the lower section).

Sorry i don't have an open clutch sitting around to go check that shaft play.  But it's hard to believe that much radial motion is within spec.  Maybe the roller bearings in the gear are worn out.
Ridin' 87 K75S vin 1334,
Renchin' 86 75S vin 0061

Offline gone_ape

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2016, 05:07:35 PM »
As it's not splined, it seems the output shaft is only supported when the clutch hub via the splined gear wheel assy is torqued together, right?

So KB, I think you're on to something....  the gear wheel 'tabs' and the output shaft 'slots' (with which they engage each other) have somehow worn and have developed this 'slop' ........makes sense.

Well, I guess I'll ride it till a tab breaks off, because I can't find anything on any forum that discusses this issue....uh, maybe cuz it's "not" an issue, right? 

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Offline gone_ape

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2016, 08:10:40 PM »
Laitch, the clutch pack and clutch hub had to be removed completely to register this 'slop'....I couldn't replicate with any of the clutch pieces installed.
  • Austin, TX
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Offline Laitch

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2016, 09:31:20 PM »
10-4
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
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Offline gone_ape

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2016, 09:48:50 PM »
I think I found where my confusion started.  Digging around the K100 forum, a forum member was attempting to get at then repair his k75 rear main seal.  His comments I edited just to get to the good stuff....and unfortunately, just got the one reply back, adding more drama to my plight....
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Offline Laitch

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2016, 09:54:19 PM »
just got the one reply back, adding more drama to my plight....
Plight? Drama? You were doing ok on your own with those. Some of us are waiting patiently for the new throttle blip. Have some compassion and move forward, please.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2016, 07:00:27 AM »
Ape, the slop in the tang to slot fit appears to me to have been designed in.  When I had my engine apart last winter I examined those parts quite closely and could find no evidence of any wear that may have contributed to the sloppy fit and the resulting play.

If indeed the play is a design feature, I have no idea what it is supposed to do.  The only idea I can come up with is that the slight amount of play there would allow the balance shaft to adjust itself slightly to more accurately dynamically balance the engine.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline kennybobby

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2016, 09:23:43 AM »
Thanks for sharing your notes and pictures of this investigation.

Here's my guess about why it's such a loose fit--to ease assembly of the clutch hub.

If the radial position of the balancer shaft was designed to be held and fixed exactly concentric with the gear splines and the gear hub bearing, then it would over-constrain the fitting of the clutch hub--it would have to match perfectly at both the inner diameter and the outer splined diameter and could be difficult to assemble.  Instead it is only constained by the hub bearing for assembly and snugged up into final position by the nut. 

The more important constraint or fit is the crank gear to the output gear, the tabbed drive of the balancer shaft doesn't require as much precision--the balancer floats axially on the front roller bearing.

Now what is making the noise and why does it sometimes go away when the alternator load is removed, or after re-torquing the nut?

It is due to a slight relative motion between the drive gear and the driven gears allowed by the anti-backlash spring, and the position of the tab and slot during final torque of the nut.

The output gear has an anti-backlash spring to keep and maintain gear face contact, but the gear for the alternator does not.  Both the output and the alternator have different torque loads on the main crank gear that varies during one revolution.  In addition the output gear is coupled to the balancer shaft thru the clutch hub nut torque and the final position of the slot and tab. 

If the tab is very close to, or barely touching, the edge of the slot during the tightening of the clutch nut then the action of the anti-backlash spring combined with the load of the balancer weights and the alternator torque will allow the tab and slot edge to move and hit and clank against each other. 

Once the nut is tight the position of the gear tab/slot is fixed.  If the nut is loosened and re-torqued then the position or gap between the tab and slot edge may move slightly to increase the gap such that no contact can occur during the fluctuating torque loads, (or it forces the gap closed so tightly that it can not open?)  Those lucky folks have the quiet bikes.  Any relative motion occurs within the gap of the tab and slot and so no contact is made and no sound occurs.

When the alternator is removed it has possibly changed or reduced the peak torque load in such a way that the relative motion is lesser and no clanking occurs.  The anti-backlash spring is sufficient to hold everything in a quiet position without the reflected torque load of the alternator thru the crank gear.
Ridin' 87 K75S vin 1334,
Renchin' 86 75S vin 0061

Offline gone_ape

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2016, 12:45:52 PM »
Holy Crap, KennyBobby !!!  You earned your P.H.D. with this epic dissertation...fantastic breakdown-a-bility in those paragraphs....i can now sleep at night knowing my 'noise' isn't fatal because of this deep conversation.  I can only hope I have not wasted anybody's time.

That said, Laitch, your video will not be forthcoming this weekend.  The transmission was fiddly returning to it's post and me grunting and groaning caused this......parts have been ordered....
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Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2016, 04:01:23 PM »
That damn POS boot has to be the source of most of BMW's profit.  $40 every time you even think about touching the back side of  the transmission.  Grrr...
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline bocutter Ed

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2016, 08:41:10 PM »
Yeah, undo the clamp before "you even think about touching the back side of  the transmission".
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Offline gone_ape

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2016, 11:21:29 PM »
And my local dealer stocks EXACTLY nothing.. Not even for newer machines...sad.... Viva la multi-brand dealerships...so I mail order everything these days..

Well, being a half wit, I at least drained the trans fluid prior to all this...if I was a 'no wit' I'd be left with a puddle.....so once again I find out 'after the fact' what to do...
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Offline rbm

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Re: 1989 K75 engine rattle/knock.
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2016, 12:38:19 AM »
I always wire up the actuator arm to the transmission case when I remove the clutch cable.  It remains wired up even if removing the transmission for servicing.  I've never torn a boot using this technique (thanks goes to Bert at K100-forum).
  • Regards, Robert
Toronto, Ontario

1987 K75 - Build Blog @http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/

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