Author Topic: Installing aftermarket Cluster  (Read 26317 times)

Offline Xjskins

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Installing aftermarket Cluster
« on: April 27, 2015, 05:55:57 PM »
For those of you that may be interested:

I recently installed a Koso TNT aftermarket all in one cluster.  For the most part the install was straight forward. 

I did run into issues with the following:

1)      adapting the stock speed sensor to work with the cluster
2)      getting a good clean tach signal from the ECU
3)      getting the Neutral light to work properly

Solutions:

1)  At first I attempted to build a circuit that would convert the Sin wave output from the stock sensor to a 5v digital signal.  While I was able to model a working circuit with a simulator, in reality it did not work.  It could have been many factors.....After having a couple glasses of thinking whiskey, I thought there may be an easy solution.  There was:  In the stock cluster there is a rectangular board (3/4" x 3") that does exactly this.  All I did was apply 12v +, Grd, Sensor + and Grd and ran an out to the cluster.  Works like a charm.

2)  By just connecting the tach signal wire from the ECU (pin 19 I think), the tachometer would jump/bounch around.  This is typical of a dirty signal.  Why it is dirty coming off the ECU, I have no idea.  After some searching online I used a design for a filter.  Connections are IN, OUT, and Grd.  Works like a charm.

3)  I believe that the solution for this has been covered many times.  The only thing different I did was use 12v electronics relays instead of automotive relays.  This was done for space considerations, as well as power consumption.  I have not tested the durability of this yet...more to follow.

If anyone would like more info, ask away, I will see what I can do.

Cheers
Rick

  • Eh?
  • 1x K1100

Offline mossy173

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2015, 09:47:27 PM »
hi, I'm trying to get the same tachometer to work on the same bike. Can you give some more details on the rpm conditioning circuit board you used? This thing is bouncing around for me too.

Offline rbm

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2015, 06:37:33 AM »
Build a high pass filter, using a resistor and capacitor, in this configuration:



R = 100K, 1/2W
C = 0.001 uF, non-polarized ceramic

Attach the tach input signal to Vin; attach Vout to the tach input on the gauge; attach the free end of R to ground on the gauge.
  • Regards, Robert
Toronto, Ontario

1987 K75 - Build Blog @http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/

Offline mossy173

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2015, 12:41:41 PM »
Fantastic!  I'll pick up the cap and resistor and give it a shot ASAP.  Thanks!!!

Offline Xjskins

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2015, 05:23:04 PM »
RBM:  I tried that circuit.  It did steady the bounce for the most part, but I still had an occasional bounce at idle.  At increased rpm, it went all over the place.  If I added a diode it reduced the range of the bounce.

My solution (found through trial and error of filters found on the net) is this circuit below.

[
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Offline mossy173

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2015, 05:45:14 PM »
RBM:  I tried that circuit.  It did steady the bounce for the most part, but I still had an occasional bounce at idle.  At increased rpm, it went all over the place.  If I added a diode it reduced the range of the bounce.

My solution (found through trial and error of filters found on the net) is this circuit below.

[

Seems like you're using a high pass and low pass filter with a diode--did this work?  Does it hold steady now?

Offline Xjskins

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2015, 06:39:23 PM »
The needle is steady and smooth throughout the entire rpm range. 

How or why- I do not know or begin to understand.

When it came to getting something like the speedo to work, i used deductive reasoning and electronic modelers with info found on the net.  Then tried it. This is the same approach I took to the tach.  For all I know there are little gnomes in the parts doing all the work.

Cheers
Rick
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Offline rbm

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2015, 06:51:35 PM »
The circuit I reproduced in my post above was one that was verbally described in a post to the K100-forum.  It seemed to work for the poster.  The circuit you have shown is a low pass filter with a voltage divider.  The diode will clip any negative going spikes to 0.7V (the forward breakdown voltage of the diode).  The -3dB cutoff is rather low at 146Hz so maybe the circuit is shaping the waveform into one with a low enough peak voltage that it doesn't overload the tach input circuit.

I use a Motogadget Classic speedo and it works perfectly with the waveform coming off the coil primary.  But I'd expect that since I probably paid 10X the price you paid for your gauge.
  • Regards, Robert
Toronto, Ontario

1987 K75 - Build Blog @http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/

Offline Xjskins

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2015, 07:24:47 PM »
Good to know.  The instructions said to tap off a coil or the signal off ecu. I never tried the coil method, i wonder if it would have been less trouble.
That motogadget unit is nice and has alot of features i wouldn't mind having.  How did you hook up the speedo?
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Offline rbm

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2015, 07:29:36 PM »
Quote
How did you hook up the speedo?
Installation details are in my blog -- URL is http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/
  • Regards, Robert
Toronto, Ontario

1987 K75 - Build Blog @http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/

Offline mossy173

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2015, 12:13:20 AM »
Here's another question--what did you do about the charge indicator light?  I gather the battery won't charge without a bulb in the charging circuit, and I don't see an easy way to use the koso gauge for this.

Offline Xjskins

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2015, 06:05:02 AM »
I used a resistor on the blue wire from alternator to battery positive.  I used what I had here already which was an order of 47 (either 470,4700, 47000 or 470000) ohm resistor - 5 watt.

This was/is a temporary measure while i was working on the bike to keep the battery up.  I figured that the system would either be in charge mode or not but in practice I get something like this:

<1800 rpm = battery voltage
about 1800 = 12.8v
2000 = 13v
2400 = 13.8v

I would much prefer an option where it kicked in full at a lower rpm, but haven't gotten around to trying different things yet. Let me know what you decide on using, and how it works for you.  Have you got your tach sorted?

Cheers
Rick

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  • 1x K1100

Offline mossy173

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2015, 09:15:12 PM »

My solution (found through trial and error of filters found on the net) is this circuit below.

[

dang, still bouncing around. I did substitute a 1n4005 diode, do you think that made a difference?

Offline Xjskins

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2015, 10:04:45 PM »
That sucks.....wish I could be of more help.

I can not help you on the diode question, from the sounds of it rbm might be able to help.

Thinking about it, I have my filter fairly close to the gauge.  Could this be an interference type thing, where electrical fields from other parts are influencing the signal along the path of the wire after the filter......wild guess...
  • Eh?
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Offline rbm

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2015, 11:21:51 PM »
The filter has to be as close to the gauge as practical, for the reason you cite xjskins.

Mossy, did you try just the one low pass circuit?  A 1n4005 won't make a difference.  It has a lower reverse voltage spec but that doesn't matter.  Is there anyone with an oscilloscope you can borrow to get an idea what you're trying to feed to the gauge?
  • Regards, Robert
Toronto, Ontario

1987 K75 - Build Blog @http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/

Offline mossy173

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2015, 12:32:42 PM »
I tried both circuits that have appeared in this thread so far, and some variations of them.  Nothing appeared to really have much effect, although adding just the diode alone seems to help some.  Don't know of an easy way to get my hands on an oscilloscope, unfortunately.  I'm sure that'd make life easier. 

The needle is falling to 0 sporadically at low revs and looks pretty steady off idle, so maybe it's an issue of a weak low rpm signal? 

Offline Xjskins

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Speed sensor hookups
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2015, 08:52:38 PM »
Further info on how I mated stock speed sensor to aftermarket gauge  (BMW to 5v Digital)

This method worked for my 93 K1100LT (ABS 1/early model year version), proceed at your own discretion. 

1) Remove your stock gauge cluster.
2) Open it up to reveal the back of the important bits.
3) You will see that there are a couple small circuit boards placed in plastic clips.  You are looking for one that is approx 1/2 to 3/4 inch wide and 2 1/2 to 3 inches long.  It is readily accessible. It will say in printing " blah blah part #, MOTO METER, blah blah part #."  I can long longer read those off my board before you ask.  Another visual indicator is that it has 4 female connections in a row on one end.
4) Remove the board.
5) I removed the 4 female stab connectors and put in terminal connections.  Each connection point is labeled with other a single or dual letter combination.  I can no longer read mine.

6) When looking at the top (front) of the board and the MOTO METER is correctly orientated the connections are as follows:
Left to right

           Speed sensor +  (yellow wire) (from final drive)

           Ground (brown wire from speed sensor AND another lead to vehicle ground)

           Digital Signal Output + (any color you like) (you need to identify which lead from your new speedo is the POSITIVE SIGNAL IN)

           12v + (I used switched power from something that I removed)

7) Package it up to prevent shorts, use the new speedo tire diameter to adjust and calibrate. 

Note: This circuit supplies 6 (six) 5 volt + signals for every rotation of the wheel.
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Offline rbm

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2015, 04:25:26 PM »
Motometer part number 9 4401 173 10 1 459 571
Front

Back
  • Regards, Robert
Toronto, Ontario

1987 K75 - Build Blog @http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/

Offline Santoro1191

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2016, 05:11:26 PM »
Hey everybody I'm new to the form. And i know this post is kinda old.
I'm trying to get a koso tachometer working on a 85 k100 I've tried the the capacitor and resistor going to ground but that doesn't seem to work every time i ground the resistor the tach goes to 0 if i leave just the capacitor the tach works fine but only when the engine is at full temp. At cold starts it bounces everywhere. Can someone please point me in the right direction
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Offline cdrp

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2016, 11:46:58 PM »
Hi, Xjskins, excellent tip for the speedo!! I spend around 8 hours trying to connect a SpeedHut speedo, until I found your comments, it just took around 15 minutes, and it worked really good!!! now the original instrument cluster is hanging on the wall as a piece of art-object!!
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Offline hugoo

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2016, 10:17:47 AM »
Hi,
I tried using the search function, but since allready so many questions about new  gauges are asked, it was still not possible to find the answer to my simple question;
How many pulses is the tach signal from a k75, is it positive or negative?
Might be a stupid question but I dont know any electronics and my koso is asking for this info :-)

thx!!!
  • BE
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Offline rbm

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2016, 10:26:55 AM »
This is a picture of the signal you're asking to be described.  It's the waveform produced on the primary of coil #1 on a K75 at idle (Black/Blue wire).


Historically, Koso owners have found that the signal from the coil primary causes the tach to bounce around in an unstable fashion.  You might get more success using a wire wrapped around the spark plug wire as outlined in the Koso documentation.
  • Regards, Robert
Toronto, Ontario

1987 K75 - Build Blog @http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/

Offline hugoo

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2016, 02:30:13 PM »
Thx rbm! I am not willing to do so much effort for just optaining th rpms 😀
I read the dirty signal topics u are talking avout but on first sight I dont seem to have to much trouble with that. Rpms go up and down in response to the gas. Maybe its because it is digitally shown on my koso that the i dication is not bouncing?
Anyway thank you for the picture above but i am sorry i dont understand what it means. So if you plz could help me with thz amount of pulses?
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Offline cdrp

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2016, 02:40:17 PM »
Hi, the pure sensor generates an AC signal that goes from 0 up to 5 volts AC, you probably need to amplify this signal, yo can use the amplifier in the standard instrument cluster, if you use it, it gives around 5 pulses per wheel revolution at 5 volts DC, I recommend using it, I just went trough the process, check my posts in one picture you can see the amplifier...


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Offline rbm

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Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2016, 02:45:24 PM »
It shows the signal at idle (about 1000 RPM) is outputting a pulse every 7mS, and the amplitude of the pulse is about 8 volts peak-peak, and mostly positive going.  If I were to open the throttle, I would expect to see the interval between pulses shrink as more and more pulses are generated to keep up the engine RPMs.  This information you can use to see if the signal is going to be useful for the Koso.
  • Regards, Robert
Toronto, Ontario

1987 K75 - Build Blog @http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/

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