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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: Xjskins on April 27, 2015, 05:55:57 PM

Title: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: Xjskins on April 27, 2015, 05:55:57 PM
For those of you that may be interested:

I recently installed a Koso TNT aftermarket all in one cluster.  For the most part the install was straight forward. 

I did run into issues with the following:

1)      adapting the stock speed sensor to work with the cluster
2)      getting a good clean tach signal from the ECU
3)      getting the Neutral light to work properly

Solutions:

1)  At first I attempted to build a circuit that would convert the Sin wave output from the stock sensor to a 5v digital signal.  While I was able to model a working circuit with a simulator, in reality it did not work.  It could have been many factors.....After having a couple glasses of thinking whiskey, I thought there may be an easy solution.  There was:  In the stock cluster there is a rectangular board (3/4" x 3") that does exactly this.  All I did was apply 12v +, Grd, Sensor + and Grd and ran an out to the cluster.  Works like a charm.

2)  By just connecting the tach signal wire from the ECU (pin 19 I think), the tachometer would jump/bounch around.  This is typical of a dirty signal.  Why it is dirty coming off the ECU, I have no idea.  After some searching online I used a design for a filter.  Connections are IN, OUT, and Grd.  Works like a charm.

3)  I believe that the solution for this has been covered many times.  The only thing different I did was use 12v electronics relays instead of automotive relays.  This was done for space considerations, as well as power consumption.  I have not tested the durability of this yet...more to follow.

If anyone would like more info, ask away, I will see what I can do.

Cheers
Rick

Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: mossy173 on May 21, 2015, 09:47:27 PM
hi, I'm trying to get the same tachometer to work on the same bike. Can you give some more details on the rpm conditioning circuit board you used? This thing is bouncing around for me too.
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: rbm on May 22, 2015, 06:37:33 AM
Build a high pass filter, using a resistor and capacitor, in this configuration:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/High_pass_filter.svg/210px-High_pass_filter.svg.png)

R = 100K, 1/2W
C = 0.001 uF, non-polarized ceramic

Attach the tach input signal to Vin; attach Vout to the tach input on the gauge; attach the free end of R to ground on the gauge.
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: mossy173 on May 22, 2015, 12:41:41 PM
Fantastic!  I'll pick up the cap and resistor and give it a shot ASAP.  Thanks!!!
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: Xjskins on May 22, 2015, 05:23:04 PM
RBM:  I tried that circuit.  It did steady the bounce for the most part, but I still had an occasional bounce at idle.  At increased rpm, it went all over the place.  If I added a diode it reduced the range of the bounce.

My solution (found through trial and error of filters found on the net) is this circuit below.

[
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: mossy173 on May 22, 2015, 05:45:14 PM
RBM:  I tried that circuit.  It did steady the bounce for the most part, but I still had an occasional bounce at idle.  At increased rpm, it went all over the place.  If I added a diode it reduced the range of the bounce.

My solution (found through trial and error of filters found on the net) is this circuit below.

[

Seems like you're using a high pass and low pass filter with a diode--did this work?  Does it hold steady now?
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: Xjskins on May 22, 2015, 06:39:23 PM
The needle is steady and smooth throughout the entire rpm range. 

How or why- I do not know or begin to understand.

When it came to getting something like the speedo to work, i used deductive reasoning and electronic modelers with info found on the net.  Then tried it. This is the same approach I took to the tach.  For all I know there are little gnomes in the parts doing all the work.

Cheers
Rick
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: rbm on May 22, 2015, 06:51:35 PM
The circuit I reproduced in my post above was one that was verbally described in a post to the K100-forum (http://www.k100-forum.com/t8232-electrical-trouble-mounting-aftermarket-digital-speedo#116777).  It seemed to work for the poster.  The circuit you have shown is a low pass filter with a voltage divider.  The diode will clip any negative going spikes to 0.7V (the forward breakdown voltage of the diode).  The -3dB cutoff is rather low at 146Hz so maybe the circuit is shaping the waveform into one with a low enough peak voltage that it doesn't overload the tach input circuit.

I use a Motogadget Classic speedo and it works perfectly with the waveform coming off the coil primary.  But I'd expect that since I probably paid 10X the price you paid for your gauge.
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: Xjskins on May 22, 2015, 07:24:47 PM
Good to know.  The instructions said to tap off a coil or the signal off ecu. I never tried the coil method, i wonder if it would have been less trouble.
That motogadget unit is nice and has alot of features i wouldn't mind having.  How did you hook up the speedo?
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: rbm on May 22, 2015, 07:29:36 PM
Quote
How did you hook up the speedo?
Installation details are in my blog -- URL is http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: mossy173 on May 27, 2015, 12:13:20 AM
Here's another question--what did you do about the charge indicator light?  I gather the battery won't charge without a bulb in the charging circuit, and I don't see an easy way to use the koso gauge for this.
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: Xjskins on May 27, 2015, 06:05:02 AM
I used a resistor on the blue wire from alternator to battery positive.  I used what I had here already which was an order of 47 (either 470,4700, 47000 or 470000) ohm resistor - 5 watt.

This was/is a temporary measure while i was working on the bike to keep the battery up.  I figured that the system would either be in charge mode or not but in practice I get something like this:

<1800 rpm = battery voltage
about 1800 = 12.8v
2000 = 13v
2400 = 13.8v

I would much prefer an option where it kicked in full at a lower rpm, but haven't gotten around to trying different things yet. Let me know what you decide on using, and how it works for you.  Have you got your tach sorted?

Cheers
Rick

Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: mossy173 on May 29, 2015, 09:15:12 PM

My solution (found through trial and error of filters found on the net) is this circuit below.

[

dang, still bouncing around. I did substitute a 1n4005 diode, do you think that made a difference?
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: Xjskins on May 29, 2015, 10:04:45 PM
That sucks.....wish I could be of more help.

I can not help you on the diode question, from the sounds of it rbm might be able to help.

Thinking about it, I have my filter fairly close to the gauge.  Could this be an interference type thing, where electrical fields from other parts are influencing the signal along the path of the wire after the filter......wild guess...
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: rbm on May 29, 2015, 11:21:51 PM
The filter has to be as close to the gauge as practical, for the reason you cite xjskins.

Mossy, did you try just the one low pass circuit?  A 1n4005 won't make a difference.  It has a lower reverse voltage spec but that doesn't matter.  Is there anyone with an oscilloscope you can borrow to get an idea what you're trying to feed to the gauge?
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: mossy173 on June 01, 2015, 12:32:42 PM
I tried both circuits that have appeared in this thread so far, and some variations of them.  Nothing appeared to really have much effect, although adding just the diode alone seems to help some.  Don't know of an easy way to get my hands on an oscilloscope, unfortunately.  I'm sure that'd make life easier. 

The needle is falling to 0 sporadically at low revs and looks pretty steady off idle, so maybe it's an issue of a weak low rpm signal? 
Title: Speed sensor hookups
Post by: Xjskins on July 30, 2015, 08:52:38 PM
Further info on how I mated stock speed sensor to aftermarket gauge  (BMW to 5v Digital)

This method worked for my 93 K1100LT (ABS 1/early model year version), proceed at your own discretion. 

1) Remove your stock gauge cluster.
2) Open it up to reveal the back of the important bits.
3) You will see that there are a couple small circuit boards placed in plastic clips.  You are looking for one that is approx 1/2 to 3/4 inch wide and 2 1/2 to 3 inches long.  It is readily accessible. It will say in printing " blah blah part #, MOTO METER, blah blah part #."  I can long longer read those off my board before you ask.  Another visual indicator is that it has 4 female connections in a row on one end.
4) Remove the board.
5) I removed the 4 female stab connectors and put in terminal connections.  Each connection point is labeled with other a single or dual letter combination.  I can no longer read mine.

6) When looking at the top (front) of the board and the MOTO METER is correctly orientated the connections are as follows:
Left to right

           Speed sensor +  (yellow wire) (from final drive)

           Ground (brown wire from speed sensor AND another lead to vehicle ground)

           Digital Signal Output + (any color you like) (you need to identify which lead from your new speedo is the POSITIVE SIGNAL IN)

           12v + (I used switched power from something that I removed)

7) Package it up to prevent shorts, use the new speedo tire diameter to adjust and calibrate. 

Note: This circuit supplies 6 (six) 5 volt + signals for every rotation of the wheel.
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: rbm on July 31, 2015, 04:25:26 PM
Motometer part number 9 4401 173 10 1 459 571
Front
(http://www.k1100lt.de/files/flybrick/DKTK/Bilder/81.jpg)
Back
(http://www.k1100lt.de/files/flybrick/DKTK/Bilder/82.jpg)
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: Santoro1191 on February 15, 2016, 05:11:26 PM
Hey everybody I'm new to the form. And i know this post is kinda old.
I'm trying to get a koso tachometer working on a 85 k100 I've tried the the capacitor and resistor going to ground but that doesn't seem to work every time i ground the resistor the tach goes to 0 if i leave just the capacitor the tach works fine but only when the engine is at full temp. At cold starts it bounces everywhere. Can someone please point me in the right direction
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: cdrp on April 08, 2016, 11:46:58 PM
Hi, Xjskins, excellent tip for the speedo!! I spend around 8 hours trying to connect a SpeedHut speedo, until I found your comments, it just took around 15 minutes, and it worked really good!!! now the original instrument cluster is hanging on the wall as a piece of art-object!!
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: hugoo on April 24, 2016, 10:17:47 AM
Hi,
I tried using the search function, but since allready so many questions about new  gauges are asked, it was still not possible to find the answer to my simple question;
How many pulses is the tach signal from a k75, is it positive or negative?
Might be a stupid question but I dont know any electronics and my koso is asking for this info :-)

thx!!!
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: rbm on April 24, 2016, 10:26:55 AM
This is a picture of the signal you're asking to be described.  It's the waveform produced on the primary of coil #1 on a K75 at idle (Black/Blue wire).
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/0/270-010917111338-646417.jpeg)

Historically, Koso owners have found that the signal from the coil primary causes the tach to bounce around in an unstable fashion.  You might get more success using a wire wrapped around the spark plug wire as outlined in the Koso documentation.
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: hugoo on April 24, 2016, 02:30:13 PM
Thx rbm! I am not willing to do so much effort for just optaining th rpms 😀
I read the dirty signal topics u are talking avout but on first sight I dont seem to have to much trouble with that. Rpms go up and down in response to the gas. Maybe its because it is digitally shown on my koso that the i dication is not bouncing?
Anyway thank you for the picture above but i am sorry i dont understand what it means. So if you plz could help me with thz amount of pulses?
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: cdrp on April 24, 2016, 02:40:17 PM
Hi, the pure sensor generates an AC signal that goes from 0 up to 5 volts AC, you probably need to amplify this signal, yo can use the amplifier in the standard instrument cluster, if you use it, it gives around 5 pulses per wheel revolution at 5 volts DC, I recommend using it, I just went trough the process, check my posts in one picture you can see the amplifier...


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: rbm on April 24, 2016, 02:45:24 PM
It shows the signal at idle (about 1000 RPM) is outputting a pulse every 7mS, and the amplitude of the pulse is about 8 volts peak-peak, and mostly positive going.  If I were to open the throttle, I would expect to see the interval between pulses shrink as more and more pulses are generated to keep up the engine RPMs.  This information you can use to see if the signal is going to be useful for the Koso.
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: rbm on April 24, 2016, 02:48:17 PM
Sorry cdrp, Hugoo asked for tach information.  Tachometer reads engine speed, not road speed.  Did he really mean speedometer sensor information?  Sorry I took the question to mean engine speed.
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: cdrp on April 24, 2016, 02:51:21 PM
Sorry, you are right, I miss read the comment, I had no problem with the tach, you can use the signal from the moronic directly, just program the pulses per revolution on the tach to 1, this will do...
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: hugoo on April 24, 2016, 04:34:37 PM
Thx both of u! :yes

So now i am sure i read the rpms right 😀.(engine speed)
But now i am confused again about speed! I read on thus forum that for road speed, you had 6 pulse each rotation, but now you are saying 5? Just to be qure and correct as possible, should i use 5 or 6 pulses for roadspeed?
Thx
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: cdrp on April 24, 2016, 04:39:06 PM
The best way is to compare the speed with a GPS, and modify the settings accordingly, more pulses o tire diameter....


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: rbm on April 24, 2016, 04:51:42 PM
It's 6 pulses per wheel revolution.  As cdrp says, program the Koso to use 6 as the multiplier and estimate the wheel circumference.  Then use a mobile phone based GPS program to fine tune the circumference number so that the Koso speed and GPS match.
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: hugoo on April 25, 2016, 01:34:49 AM
Thx! I ll compare the speed to my gps as soon as my tires are chanced!
Thx again for all the help I was nt expecting the koso to be working allready and i am really happy it is!
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: KJustin on May 10, 2016, 02:11:29 AM
Sorry to resurrect an old thread...

I built the low pass filter in reply 2. It helps quite a bit, but I still have some jumpiness in my tacho, which is an Acewell.  I want to try the one in reply 4. My question is what capacitor do I use?  I'm not understanding the notation in the diagram. Thanks!
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: Xjskins on May 10, 2016, 07:56:20 AM
Although it was been a while, I believe it to be 33 nano farad.  The free program that I used to draw that was Texas Instruments TINA, and it is loaded on the other computer, will confirm for you later today.

Cheers

Rick
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: KJustin on May 10, 2016, 11:03:44 PM
Thanks Rick.  Please do confirm when you have a chance. 

Also, do you know it is possible/advisable/inadvisable to use a capacitor of slightly higher or lower value? If I recall what I saw at the store yesterday, I don't think that my local Radio Shack had a a 33 nano farad in stock, but I think they may have had something close (I think they had 22 and 47, but I could be misremembering).  If exactly 33 is crucial, then I can order one on-line and just be patient for a few days while delivery is pending.  TIA!
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: KJustin on May 20, 2016, 12:19:10 AM
Just thought I'd report my progress. Built and installed the circuit from reply 4 but with a 47 nano farad capacitor instead of a 33. Just fired and revved the bike in the garage (didn't have time for a full test ride) and the tach looked very steady and accurate. I'm going to call it a success. Will report back if there are problems upon a full test ride. But if I don't post, future readers can assume that this solution worked for me. Thanks all for the assistance. Best, Justin.
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: Laitch on May 20, 2016, 06:33:13 AM
Just thought I'd report my progress.
Good followup, Justin!
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: Deforj on May 23, 2017, 10:50:51 PM
sorry about reviving this old thread. Where exactly did you take your signal for the tach ?
Was it pin 19 from the ecu? Did you use the wire connected to pin 19 in the main harness ?

Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: KJustin on May 23, 2017, 11:47:50 PM
I think I used pin 16 on the speedo plug-in, which is the black/blue wire. I'm not sure what pin that is on the ECU. But I bet someone else on here will know.


Unfortunately I'm currently separated from my bike and documentation, so I can't confirm. But I'm about 95% sure.
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: Mr.Tom on June 15, 2017, 04:41:35 AM
I think I used pin 16 on the speedo plug-in, which is the black/blue wire. I'm not sure what pin that is on the ECU. But I bet someone else on here will know.


Unfortunately I'm currently separated from my bike and documentation, so I can't confirm. But I'm about 95% sure.
I've been suffering from the jumpy tachometer for a few years now and found this thread, unfortunatly the schematics on reply 4 is gone, do you think you can explain the circuit?


//Tom
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: Laitch on June 15, 2017, 06:16:18 AM
I've been suffering from the jumpy tachometer for a few years now and found this thread, unfortunatly the schematics on reply 4 is gone, do you think you can explain the circuit?
This is the schematic to which you refer; it is visible in reply #4 so check your computer or phone settings.

* Hoskins Reply#4 schematic.jpg (14.14 kB . 512x172 - viewed 365 times)
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: Mr.Tom on June 15, 2017, 06:54:04 AM
This is the schematic to which you refer; it is visible in reply #4 so check your computer or phone settings.
Thanks, must have been looking at the post while not signed in!
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: Laitch on June 15, 2017, 07:10:55 AM
How about introducing yourself in the Welcome to Motobrick section and posting a few photos of your bike in different profiles, Mr.Tom?
Title: Re: Installing aftermarket Cluster
Post by: Mr.Tom on June 15, 2017, 02:59:05 PM
How about introducing yourself in the Welcome to Motobrick section and posting a few photos of your bike in different profiles, Mr.Tom?
Sounds like a good idea, I'll get on it this weekend  :2thumbup: