Author Topic: Turbo identify?  (Read 3373 times)

Offline schrocketeer

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Turbo identify?
« on: January 23, 2024, 02:07:31 PM »
Would you please help me identify the turbo-brick I picked up last night?
1985 K100RS
Customized by Don Gray
Turbodyne, Turbopac Model 702-000, Serial Number 11522
  mounted just above the radiator return line
  turbo exhaust manifold replaced by a previous owner with OEM\
  white-faced 0-20 psi boost gauge mounted where key normal goes below instrument cluster
  • North Alabama
  • 1985 K100RT (P.O. mod'ed)
Ken   Current: 85 K100RS Turbo, 07 SV1000S, 80 KL250, 99 R1100GS, 09 DL650, 16 4RT260, 97 XR100, 70 CT70, 06 YFM400
Past Bikes: 85 K100RT, 86 VFR700, 91 XR250, 95 VLX600, 86 TRX250, 02 GZ250, 83 Z50R, 78 ATC90, 86 XR250, 79 XR500, 72 AT1, 75 YZ360, 78 DT400, 75 DT125, 73 Trail 70

Offline frankenduck

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2024, 02:32:29 PM »
Luftmeister did about 100 K100 turbos but yours is not one of them because the Luftmeister turbo setup looks much different.

I have a Luftmeister turbo K75 and the turbo setup looks like this:

Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
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Offline Arktasian

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2024, 03:21:07 PM »
I think you answered your own question, it appears to be an "American Turbopac" product, no longer in business. Typically, their turbo location was roughly where a battery is mounted. Control over added fueling would be something to keep a very close eye on if you're running/ tuning (a wide band O2 system/ gauge would be a wise addition safety measure if not already on the bike)
Good luck.
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Offline Arktasian

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2024, 06:33:06 PM »
I re-reading your original post, it would then seem you are looking for parts support in order to replace the stock exhaust system - with that which fed back up and into the turbo? (photos don't entirely do justice to this but it would seem likely that it was a very unusual feed pipe up into the turbine side from the cylinder outlets)
If this is the case, are you going to seek a replacement item through a fabricator? Use caution if so, as your choice of materials can spell either success, or catastrophic disaster. Kind of always disappointing when a post comes up and then goes dead quiet (mind you I can't stand too holy on this subject, having a pretty long running project that awaits a start up "soon" and has gone long months between updates)
Regardless, if you have a plan or wish, post about it and see what comes back. Many here can help in ways not always anticipated (for myself, anything turbocharged and highly modified for sure)
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Offline frankenduck

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2024, 09:25:48 PM »
Yeah, I was curious about that too. It looks like it has stock headers that go to a stock exhaust so what spins the turbo?
Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
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Offline schrocketeer

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2024, 11:29:21 AM »
My original request was to see if the exhaust to turbo "plumbing" was common enough (e.g. spare Luftmeister/RB-Systems) I could buy just that piece. That doesn't seem to be the case. I'm not committed to getting a custom fabrication of that yet.

A previous owner replaced the exhaust side of the turbo with an electric motor. The intake side of the turbo was ducted in to the airbox, in front of the air filter.
To me that means it was acting as a forced/ducted air intake (to use 1970's muscle car terms).
Yesterday I disconnected the turbo-electric-motor power lines (directly connected to the battery :-o), to simplify my troubleshooting.

A time or two after this turbo-electric disconnect, the Starter tried to engage, but not consistently.
Not sure if Previous Owners knew about the "roll it backwards in 3rd multi times a year to help the Starter. Therefore, I'll pull the Starter next, clean it, re-assemble, and try again.

My son helped me purge the fuel system last weekend. All 4 injectors spray, with 12 Volts appropriately across each. The fuel rail had it's gunk purged. New fuel filter. Final tank purge next.

Thanks for the assistance so far. This is a great group!
Many times I've pointed new Brick owners to this site, from Facebook Groups.
  • North Alabama
  • 1985 K100RT (P.O. mod'ed)
Ken   Current: 85 K100RS Turbo, 07 SV1000S, 80 KL250, 99 R1100GS, 09 DL650, 16 4RT260, 97 XR100, 70 CT70, 06 YFM400
Past Bikes: 85 K100RT, 86 VFR700, 91 XR250, 95 VLX600, 86 TRX250, 02 GZ250, 83 Z50R, 78 ATC90, 86 XR250, 79 XR500, 72 AT1, 75 YZ360, 78 DT400, 75 DT125, 73 Trail 70

Offline Arktasian

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2024, 03:49:08 PM »
That's an interesting mod to a turbo, have you had that electric motor running & if so what sort of "delivery" does it seem to have? A pretty much critical aspect of a traditional, exhaust driven turbocharger is that it delivers more air as it is needed by reason of increased throttle states and rpm's - and even superchargers will increase output based on rpm's. Unless your modified turbo drive has a pulse width power control to vary output based on engine requirements and linked to fuel delivery somehow, I'd suspect it will be way overkill air supply at low throttle/ load states & would tend to stress the throttle plates ability to control air flow and making operation challenging. It could recover at higher states. Perhaps it was an attempt at drag racing where going all in is all that matters.
Another question, the benefits of a turbo (or supercharger) providing more combustion air, will only really be realized when more fuel is also injected. Does your system have a 5th injector (as RB racing kits used, the actual builders of those kits - or Lufty as F.D. would refer to them). Otherwise it would rely on some manner of ecu over ride or fooling system to gain more fuel. I'm not aware of any one actually reprograming a Motronic, but offer the question in interest to see what your bike has. I admit I've never seen that kit on a brick before, and there are many systems out there that have been produced over the years. Perhaps others have run across it.

Edit added, don't ignore having a new exhaust supply pipe made to run between perhaps a scavenged stock 4 pipe set up and the turbine inlet, but I would utilize 321 stainless materials. Burns Stainless in the US is an excellent source for this in affordable elbows and straight stock, in various diameters. Otherwise, most materials will granulize and fail, unless the heavy cast materials are used.
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Offline Arktasian

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2024, 03:37:08 PM »
Although net searches for Turbodyne and Turbopac come up without web sites or currently operating companies, there are some clues that point towards what may be on your bike.
Are you sure this bike ever had an exhaust connection towards the traditional turbine inlet feed? Seems the Turbodyne "Electric" approach has been supplied with what appears to be a proper electric motor driven by a module that gains info from bike sensors and/or the motronic itself. See image below:

* Turbodyne 2500.jpg (37.14 kB . 768x454 - viewed 216 times)
Although there are references to a location in California, as well New York, it doesn't appear there are any viable web site links, or avenues to buy stuff.
Regardless, I doubt anyone would have gone to the trouble of adding their own electric motor device and perhaps it is one of the such devices as showing above. In that case, it may be worthy of testing "as is" to see if it works and has benefits towards performance.
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Offline frankenduck

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2024, 07:19:22 PM »
My K75 is most definitely a Luftmeister turbo. It was done in 1986 when K75s came out. If you know anything about what K100 Lufty turbos look like then you will see that it is an identical setup to mine and the turbo header/exhaust setup is most definitely Luftmeister. Also, when I was doing resewarch on it I actually tracked down made contact with a guy who used to work at Luftmeistrder and used to commute on a K75 Luftmesiater turbo. As a side note, mine also has the Luftmeister high performance cams.

I think Matt Capri never actively marketed turbo K75s because anybody who was going to drop that kind of coin was going to do it on a four cylinder engine, not the K75, but he did make a few of them.

By the way, you keep talking about the Motronic for the 1985 K100 this thread is about. This tells me that in general you are not too knowledgeaable about K bikes since a 1985 K100 does not have a Motronic control unit. All of the two valve K bikes used Bosch L-Jetronic control units. Motronics weren't intoduced on K bikes until later in the 80s when the K100RS4V and K1 came out.

Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
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Offline Arktasian

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2024, 11:01:01 AM »
No need to crank up the angst there F.D.  4265249878 - I'll be the first to admit I am not a K bike expert as far as which year has what particular part. I tend to flog "Motronic" brand when an ecu that can't be "easily" tuned is being considered. But carry on with corrections, FYI my spelling tends to be rather poor too.
Pretty much as far as I am aware, Luftmeister was the approved distributor of kits while RB Racing "designed" and built all the parts. Any Lufty fabrications tended to be Matt Capri wet dreams on his ideas that frequently resulted in broken parts. Its all covered in detail in an amusing, angry fashion via RB Racings web site.
Currently however, merely attempting to discuss a different system and possibly help in getting it up & running.
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Offline frankenduck

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2024, 01:06:21 PM »
No angst here. Just explaining to you how I know for a fact that my K75 is a Lufty turbo.

Just so you know, L-Jetronics and Motronics are completely different. To start with the L-Jetronic is an analog device while a Motronic is a digital device. Next, on the 2 valve K bikes the L-Jetronic only controls fueling while ignition is controlled by a separate ignition control unit that resides up by the steering head. With the later Motronic both fueling and ignition are digitally controlled by the Motronic.

Also, it's a lot easier to change the fuel mapping on the Motronic by just swapping in another chip. For K1s and K100RS I know of two aftermarket chips that were available. One was a chip sold by Staintune to go with their exhaust and another "performance" chip made by Harman.

From my discussions with the guy who knew about Luftmeister turbos there were three stages:

Stage 1 - 5 psi boost with factory fuel mapping
Stage 2 - Variable boost
Stage 3 - Adding another fuel injector and tweaking the fuel mapping

My understanding is that my K75 and the K100 Lufty turbos are Stage 1. To the best of my knowledge my K75 has a stock L-Jetronic with factory fuel mapping.

Disclaimer: I make no claim to be an expert on turbos. This is just my basic understanding of them.
Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
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Offline schrocketeer

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2024, 06:58:56 PM »
It's appearing more likely there was not a true turbo-charger on the system, but an electric motor turning the inlet turbine side.

This weekend I got the turbo off, and took the cover off of the back side of what appears to be the electric motor. There was what appears to be a electric motor controller that was under the seat, above the L-Jetronic computer. Five thick wires (8 gauge?) fed in to the motor box. Positive and Negative were directly connected to the battery. Three more wires directly from the engine controller.
There was a splice in to the green with red stripe L-Jetronic bundle. I believe that is the air-flow meter signal wire?

IF that's the case, the electric motor speed could be increased with sensed air-flow.

Security and Exchange Commission listing for Turbodyne Systems and their Turbopac (https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1022097/000109238800500306/turbodyne_10qv3.htm) validate the electric only driven side of the Turbo, "The Company’s technology is based upon DC/AC, very high-speed, high-powered electronically commutated electric motors."
  • North Alabama
  • 1985 K100RT (P.O. mod'ed)
Ken   Current: 85 K100RS Turbo, 07 SV1000S, 80 KL250, 99 R1100GS, 09 DL650, 16 4RT260, 97 XR100, 70 CT70, 06 YFM400
Past Bikes: 85 K100RT, 86 VFR700, 91 XR250, 95 VLX600, 86 TRX250, 02 GZ250, 83 Z50R, 78 ATC90, 86 XR250, 79 XR500, 72 AT1, 75 YZ360, 78 DT400, 75 DT125, 73 Trail 70

Offline frankenduck

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2024, 07:18:27 PM »
GRN/RED goes to both the mass airflow sensor and the fuel injectors.
Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
New to K bikes? Click here.
K Bike Maintenance & Mods: Click here.
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Offline Arktasian

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2024, 09:48:23 PM »
You are faced with a decision to continue with this system, or remove and restore bike back to stock. Seeing as how it appears to be "all there", I'd press forward to see what works and if that Turbodyne system is operational, and of benefit. However a point that should be considered is whether there was a provision for added fueling. If no changes were made with the addition of this kit, then you are basically "normalizing" the engines air characteristics - which does make an improvement, but not in the order of reasonable horse power gains. You may encounter challenges contacting the manufacturer for support/ data on this and other aspects - the link you provided seems to be quite old and without contact info.
Some brief net searches I made provide the below description of the system (its rather long):

"The Turbodyne TurboFlow air injection system uses an electric motor instead of mechanical linkages to run an air compressor injecting air into an engine system. Eliminating the direct mechanical coupling for a super- or turbo-charger avoids engine power reduction (supercharger) or lack of take-off power (turbo-lag). Hybrid vehicles have electricity in abundance compared with traditional vehicles. The Turbodyne TurboFlow design uses this abundance to provide significant amounts of air-on-demand.
Because the Turbodyne TurboFlow system can run independently of the engine it can be used throughout a driving cycle. The Turbodyne TurboFlow can inject air into small displacement (sub-2000 cc engines), ideal for hybrids, in situations where either power takeoff would drain too much power, or exhaust gas pressure would be insufficient.
The key differences between the new TurboFlow and the existing TurboPac(TM) design are:
    *  Reduced footprint and weight for the entire assembly
    *  Secondary "surge" power
    *  "Smart" controlled compressor output
    *  Smaller, more efficient motor controller
    *  Reduced manufacturing time and cost from using "off the shelf"
       components
According to Arnold W. Kwong, vice president of research and manufacturing, "Three examples where small-engine vehicles have tough demands are highway passing, freeway on ramps, and leaving a red light. For these situations high demands on electrical drives, mechanical turbo-lag, and supercharger power losses are all difficulties for vehicle designers. The responsiveness of the Turbodyne TurboFlow(TM) system means a surge of power, even for small-displacement engines and hybrids. The 'smart controller' approach of the Turbodyne TurboFlow enables air-on-demand air injection for vehicle designers. Air-on- demand means that fuel-engines can be sized for minimum weight in addition to improving driving cycle performance."
According to Case, "The Turbodyne TurboFlow design means that smaller, lighter engines can be used, in place of larger heavier engines, for many driving cycles. In addition to delivering 'air on demand' without mechanical power losses or exhaust modifications, the units draw virtually no power when not needed."
"According to the J.D. Power and Associates US Hybrid Sales Forecast for the 4th Quarter 2006, total unit volume of Hybrid Vehicle sales in the US is expected to grow to 854,000 units or 4.9% of the total US market by 2011. We forecast that 50% of the hybrid vehicles will be equipped with new versions of air induction systems. This represents a substantial opportunity for Turbodyne."
Case added, "The increase in popularity of smaller displacement and alternative fuel burning engines is creating challenges in the industry. As engine design moves toward smaller and smaller displacement, the need for significantly more air to achieve standard and high performance levels of acceleration in normal vehicle operating conditions increases exponentially. This can only be achieved through independently and electrically controlled air induction. This represents a huge opportunity for Turbodyne to enable independently controlled, electrically powered air induction."
With the press replete with articles about saving gas while losing money (on purchase price), there's a significant opportunity to cut vehicle manufacturing costs by downsizing engines by increasing airflow and thus torque. Downsized engines that produce the same horsepower as larger engines mean lower manufacturing cost and lower retail prices for these vehicles."
About Turbodyne Technologies, Inc.
Turbodyne Technologies, Inc. (TRBD.OB) is a California-based developer of patented electrically powered air movement and propulsion components that are engineered to promote lower fuel consumption and address higher emission standards for hybrid, gas and diesel internal combustion engines."
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Offline schrocketeer

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2024, 10:55:36 AM »
Arktasian and frankenduck,
Thank you for all the assistance with my new Brick, and it's unique electric-turbo-whiz-whir-thing.
The Starter has been disassembled, cleaned, reassembled, and tested.
Next I'll re-install and see the bike responds as a ~OEM Brick. Knowing me, I'll ride it for a couple of months and ponder the Turbopac re-install.
Since it's a 1985 K, I'm hoping it's a 49 State (that label was removed) - FYK, with the European cams. It's VIN is WB1051401F0052311
  • North Alabama
  • 1985 K100RT (P.O. mod'ed)
Ken   Current: 85 K100RS Turbo, 07 SV1000S, 80 KL250, 99 R1100GS, 09 DL650, 16 4RT260, 97 XR100, 70 CT70, 06 YFM400
Past Bikes: 85 K100RT, 86 VFR700, 91 XR250, 95 VLX600, 86 TRX250, 02 GZ250, 83 Z50R, 78 ATC90, 86 XR250, 79 XR500, 72 AT1, 75 YZ360, 78 DT400, 75 DT125, 73 Trail 70

Offline frankenduck

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2024, 01:05:07 PM »
I'm hoping it's a 49 State (that label was removed) - FYK, with the European cams. It's VIN is WB1051401F0052311

There's no such thing. All US bikes are CA/50 state compliant.
Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
New to K bikes? Click here.
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Offline Laitch

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2024, 03:38:53 PM »
All US bikes are CA/50 state compliant.
Compliant with what?
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles

Offline frankenduck

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2024, 04:38:16 PM »
Compliant with what?

California emissions standards. That's what that stupid hose from the gas tank to the top front of the engine is for. It vents gas vapors back to the engine because California is worried about ten molecules of gas fumes escaping into the atmosphere.
Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
New to K bikes? Click here.
K Bike Maintenance & Mods: Click here.
Buy parts here.

Offline Laitch

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2024, 05:24:25 PM »
All US bikes are CA/50 state compliant.
Compliant with what?
California emissions standards.
I believe schrocketeer has a chance of owning a non-compliant Brick, at least according to the attached service bulletin. According to the bulletin, '85 and earlier models imported and sold elsewhere in the US did not need to meet CA compliance until '86. Whether his is the hot cam variety is subject to debate. Some assert the only '83–'84 models had the cam and some assert the early production '85 models could have it. Largiader states the '84 and '85 models were 90hp then the '86 models were 82 hp.
Take your pick.  :laughing4-giggles:
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles

Offline frankenduck

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2024, 06:42:18 PM »
Non-CA compliant Ks don't have this pipe on the front of the motor:

Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
New to K bikes? Click here.
K Bike Maintenance & Mods: Click here.
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Offline Laitch

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2024, 06:57:58 PM »
 Pray
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles

Offline Past-my-Prime

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2024, 10:44:06 AM »
To really Rube-Goldberg this device, I'd try to put a pressure-turbine generator on the exhaust side, and feed the electric compressor off of that. Of course that only deals with the air side of things. Fueling to meet the additional air is another issue.

(Feel free to file this with the "non-helpful posts")
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Offline Arktasian

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2024, 06:03:50 PM »
That ^ I would suggest would have Rube-Goldberg blushing  44271
In actuality, if the starting system will behave and the engine can be started, it would be advantageous to run the bike "with" the turbodyne installed - witnessing behaviour/ performance. (broken record suggestions manifesting now) It can always be unbolted to perform a running comparison later.
 
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Offline Arktasian

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Re: Turbo identify?
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2024, 09:03:37 PM »
If however, we were wishing to get real fancy, consider this little gem

* Garret E Turbo.jpg (64 kB . 768x432 - viewed 182 times)
Traditional, exhaust driven turbo with high efficiency electric drive motor to get to that sweet spot just a bit sooner  112350
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Tags: turbopac turbodyne