Post by: Filmcamera on August 18, 2019, 08:19:14 AM
All in all the bike ran well but there is a major hesitancy or reluctance to rev that starts at about 3500 rpm and goes on up to 4100 or so. In that range the bike does not pull at all and feels like it is out of gas or is missing on one cylinder. As soon as it gets past that range it pulls fine again.
This happens in every gear but is more noticeable in 3rd, 4th and 5th.
I have no idea what is the cause so if anyone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.
The clutch also slips badly if I roll on hard in high gear but that is probably just oil on the clutch I think.
Post by: daveson on August 18, 2019, 08:58:34 AM
I have a memory a while ago your bike had unacepable compression on cylinder 1 and 2 and that you could hear air escape from 1 and 2 with a leak down test. Also you had an overheating problem. This made me think you have a leaking gasket between 1 and 2.
I would think that's an urgent task. If you havn't had the problem long, it might be fixed just by tightening the head bolts if they're loose (or check for stretch) The longer it's left the more likely the gasket is burnt and needs replacing
I know I shouldn't say this but many people, including myself, have got years extra out of a failed gasket with the copper based additive.
Post by: Laitch on August 18, 2019, 04:24:37 PM
Top dead center on the compression stroke should be used for the leakdown test so then:
If cylinder 2 can be heard leaking into cylinders 1 and 3, that's a head gasket problem which will also have effects on the performance of cylinder 1 and 3; if cylinder 2 can also be heard leaking through its throttle body, that's an intake valve problem.
It might be time now to repeat both tests to determine if there have been changes. Is your moto's fan running more than it usually does this season? At least you have the Street Triple to keep you sharp.
Post by: johnny on August 18, 2019, 04:45:08 PM
sounds like sticky injectors...
wanna getts liquid low friction isertopes of molybendernum for petrolium gasolines in the tank...
Backup_200603_lub101-crystal-structure.gif (22.9 kB . 250x519 - viewed 472 times)j o
Post by: Laitch on August 18, 2019, 05:10:09 PM
wanna getts liquid low friction isertopes of molybendernumUse this map to getts there.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/1601-180819170905.gif)
Post by: Filmcamera on August 19, 2019, 07:54:15 AM
Post by: daveson on August 19, 2019, 08:08:58 AM
Set your torque wrench to the final setting 36 ft. -lb. If any bolts turn at that setting, they're loose (also it takes more to start the turn, than to achieve it)
You can also find if it's the compression stroke without removing the cam cover with a finger over the plug hole, although difficult on a brick you might extend it with a hose type thing.
Post by: Laitch on August 19, 2019, 02:47:35 PM
Post by: Filmcamera on August 19, 2019, 03:04:43 PM
Cylinder 1 - 125
Cylinder 2 - 130
Cylinder 3 - 120
Cylinder 4 - 90
That is not good at all :yawl:
I am waiting for the engine to cool and I will check the valve clearances again then do the leak down test.
Post by: Filmcamera on August 19, 2019, 03:47:27 PM
Post by: daveson on August 19, 2019, 04:55:19 PM
You don't have to remove the timing cover.
Consider removing the camshaft cover in the morning so you can be confident the engine is cold and readings good.
Post by: Laitch on August 19, 2019, 05:05:11 PM
Looking at my Clymers it seems to indicate . . .You don't need to do all that to check the valve clearances or do a leakdown test. Supply the chapter and pages to which you are referring.
Isn't doing those tasks your current goal? If the engine hasn't been run, you're ready to move ahead.
Post by: Filmcamera on August 19, 2019, 06:45:10 PM
Post by: daveson on August 19, 2019, 08:23:01 PM
With the spark plug removed, you will see the piston approaching TDC. When you see the valves are closed on cylinder one they will be open on cylinder four, then you will know cylinder one is on the compression stroke.
Post by: Filmcamera on August 19, 2019, 08:27:51 PM
Post by: Laitch on August 19, 2019, 08:43:23 PM
Are you doing the leakdown test or are you going straight to camshaft disassembly for bucket replacement? That procedure follows a different course. What are your clearance numbers?
Post by: Filmcamera on August 19, 2019, 08:52:45 PM
My plan was to recheck the valve clearances (especially after today's cylinder 4 compression test) then do the leak down then take off the camshafts so I can see what buckets I have in there now and order new ones to bring all intake valves to the upper limit of spec (0.20mm)
Also depending on the results of the leak down test I might need to be ordering a head gasket, oil rings or all manner of things - time will tell.
Post by: Scott_ on August 19, 2019, 10:09:53 PM
Post by: Filmcamera on August 19, 2019, 10:19:05 PM
Post by: daveson on August 19, 2019, 10:39:43 PM
A leaking head gasket can sometimes be fixed without removing the head, depending on the cause.
Post by: Laitch on August 20, 2019, 01:31:59 AM
two intakes at 0.13 and two at 0.15 with two at 0.18 and two at 0.20I have two under min two at min and four within spec. All exhaust valves are within spec. . . . order new ones to bring all intake valves to the upper limit of spec (0.20mm)What you have are six intake valves at spec. Valve clearances are out of spec when they are below or above specification. You can bring the two at 0.13mm up to 0.18mm. The two at 0.15mm are at spec. Buckets sell for around 35USD each. Unless the buckets from the 0.13mm valves clearances can be used, it will take at least $70 for buckets to reset valves that are at spec already and make them valves that are still at spec. There's nothing needed to be done with the two at 0.18mm because they are at spec; furthermore, buckets are sized at 0.05mm increments so you couldn't set them at 0.20 even if it were beneficial to do that.
My plan was to recheck the valve clearances (especially after today's cylinder 4 compression test) then do the leak down. . . . Also depending on the results of the leak down test I might need to be ordering a head gasket, oil rings or all manner of things.That's a good plan. You won't know what to order until you remove the cylinder head. Squirting oil into the cylinders then repeating the compression test reveals ring problems if the numbers rise significantly.
You'll need to listen carefully during the leakdown. If a head gasket were leaking between two cylinders I'd expect to see significantly lower compression values than in their previous tests, and an engine running hotter than usual.
Post by: Filmcamera on August 21, 2019, 02:15:42 PM
The valves were basically the same
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/3823-210819141007-23912007.jpeg)
The leak down test was VERY differenet to the first time I did it so I guess I was not at TDC before.
Cyclinder 1
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/3823-210819141004-23892131.jpeg)
Cylinder 2
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/3823-210819141002-2386542.jpeg)
Cylinder 3
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/3823-210819141002-2386880.jpeg)
Cylinder 4
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/3823-210819141004-23891830.jpeg)
As you can see cylinder is 4 is no worse than the others. My next step is going to be to put everything back together again and redo the compression test on cylinder 4.
Listening for leaks the only place I could really hear any hiss seemed to bo coming out of the timing chain area (I did the tests with the cam cover OFF so I could see where the lobes were to verify TDC for each cylinder)
It is time to sort out the valves though so after that I will take out the buckets to measure them and order new ones. I plan to make sure the YES size is 0.20mm across the board for the intake valves if possible.
The exhaust ones I will measure but do not plan to replace any at this point.
Post by: Laitch on August 21, 2019, 04:40:21 PM
I plan to make sure the YES size is 0.20mm across the board for the intake valves if possible.
The best laid schemes o' mice an' men
Gang aft agley from To A Mouse by Robert Burns
Post by: Filmcamera on August 21, 2019, 04:43:27 PM
Post by: Laitch on August 21, 2019, 04:46:49 PM
That they do - hence the "if possible" :bmwsmileIt isn't possible.
Post by: Filmcamera on August 21, 2019, 04:49:49 PM
Post by: Laitch on August 21, 2019, 04:54:40 PM
Yes I know the buckets come in 0.05 mm steps so anything at 0.13 mm will have to either go to 0.18 mm or 0.23 mm. Chris Harris always says loose is OK so I might go over spec In those cases. What do you think?Spend your money as you see fit and define in spec however you like.
Post by: Filmcamera on August 21, 2019, 05:49:04 PM
Post by: Laitch on August 21, 2019, 07:14:50 PM
My tingling spidey senses lead me to believe you do not agree with that idea...Maybe you're recalling what I wrote in post #20, if you read post #20, or maybe you're getting a touch of hay fever.
Chris Harris always says loose is OK so I might go over spec In those cases.To quote Chris Harris from the 2V valve clearance adjustment instructional video, I have never in my life seen a 16 valve K engine with tight valves—yet, your bike's engine has two of them. Measure them again; maybe they'll be in spec—however you have chosen to define that.
Post by: Filmcamera on August 21, 2019, 08:16:31 PM
So I was thinking the 3 which can pass a 0.10 mm but not a 0.13 mm I need to bring up by 0.10 mm so a 0.20 mm will pass but 0.23 mm will not.
The 3 that are at 0.13mm passing but not a 0.15 mm I was going to add 0.05 mm to make it so a 0.18 mm will pass but a 0.20 mm will not.
The last 2 where a 0.15 mm will pass but a 0.18 mm will not I was going to also add 0.05 mm so that a 0.20 mm will pass but a 0.23 mm will not.
Is that the right way to do it or do I base it on the size that won't pass?
Yes I remember CH saying that as well, in fact I reached out to him today to ask about that. I will report back if he responds.
Post by: Scott_ on August 21, 2019, 08:47:48 PM
Maybe you're recalling what I wrote in post #20, if you read post #20, or maybe you're getting a touch of hay fever. To quote Chris Harris from the 2V valve clearance adjustment instructional video, I have never in my life seen a 16 valve K engine with tight valves
Not trying to discount what Mr Harris is saying, but I don't buy his comment about no tight valves in a 16v engine.
I've had tight valves on BOTH of my 16v K bike engines...... one is at 50K+ miles and the other is at 110K+ miles.
It is simply physics, as valves wear and seats wear they are naturally going to shrink the gap and go tight in relation to the cam clearance.
Maybe he meant to say he's found no loose valves in a 16v engine.
Post by: Filmcamera on August 21, 2019, 09:00:21 PM
Post by: Laitch on August 21, 2019, 11:31:15 PM
I checked them I had two intakes at 0.13 and two at 0.15 with two at 0.18 and two at 0.20 so I have two under min two at min and four within spec. All exhaust valves are within spec.View it differently. Fine adjustments can't be made. If a 0.15mm blade goes and the 0.20mm blade doesn't go, it's good. If the 0.15mm blade doesn't go, it's tight. If a 0.10mm blade goes, the space can be increased by either 0.05mm or 0.10mm. If the 0.20mm blade goes, it's loose but if the 0.20mm passes through tightly,it's acceptable. If you want to loosen clearances until the valves rattles like castanets, that's still your choice.In all seriousness I would say I have 6 out of spec and 2 in - if I cannot pass a 0.15 mm feeler gauge then that valve is out of spec, no?So I was thinking the 3 which can pass a 0.10 mm but not a 0.13 mm I need to bring up by 0.10 mm so a 0.20 mm will pass but 0.23 mm will not. . . .
Is that the right way to do it or do I base it on the size that won't pass?
Your partial measurements in post #29 contradict the measurements you gave in post #16. These measurements shouldn't change like tidal flow or molting turkeys. When you write that your engine has two valves clearing at 0.13, two at 0.15, two at 0.18 and two at 0.20, then I must believe your engine has two valves clearing at 0.13, two at 0.15, two at 0.18 and two at 0.20 just like when Chris Harris says tight, I must believe he means tight and not loose; just like when johnny writes poast I must believe he means poast and not toast.
The measuring process is simple. You either haven't quite grasped it yet or can't fully and accurately express it. This is another case for the intervention team from the Five Boroughs Sisyphean Society.
. . . I don't buy his [Harris's] comment about no tight valves in a 16v engine.The point of introducing that quote was to demonstrate Chris's fallibility—a condition he shares with the rest of humanity—by using Filmcamera's tight valve predicament as an example.
Post by: daveson on August 22, 2019, 12:19:52 AM
"I did the test with the cam cover off so I could see where the lobes were to verify TDC... "
Check the head bolts.
Probably good to do the test a few times until you get consistent results.
The lobes will tell you when the cylinder is on the compression stroke, but is not accurate enough to verify TDC. Place a dowel on the piston, when it extends to its outermost, you have TDC.
Post by: Filmcamera on August 22, 2019, 07:13:59 AM
Laitch i post #16 I was quoting the measurements I got last time i checked the valves about a year ago. In post #21 I published the clearances I got yesterday. In post #29 I was referring to the latest measurements. I am still unsure what to call the measurement the gauge size that will go through or the one that won't. So if a 0.15 mm is a go and a 0.18 mm is a no go I am saying the clearances is 0.15 mm making the valve in spec but at the lower limit. In that case I am planning to add 0.05 mm to bring to the upping limit of spec since it has been established that valves are more likely to tighten over time rather than getting looser. If that is wrong and it is better to leave them at the tighter end of spec please let me know and I will leave them alone, saving me $35 per bucket.
Post by: Filmcamera on August 22, 2019, 01:55:03 PM
I then put the cam cover back on a rechecked the compression on cylinder 4 - this time I got 120 psi meaning it is the same as the others (I had a suspicion the battery was running out of punch before so I fully charged it before redoing the test today)
This weekend I will remove the buckets to measure them, I am more than a little nervous about the process - it involves digging deeper into the heart of the beast than I ever have before but I will take it slowly and do my best.
However I do not feel like I am really any closer to solving the problem that started this thread, the rough running and hesitancy I was getting at 3500 - 4000 rpm. The compression is the same as it has been for ages and so are the valves.
Post by: Laitch on August 22, 2019, 10:22:03 PM
please let me know and I will leave them alone, saving me $35 per bucket.If something is at specification, leave it alone and adjust something that isn't at specification.
Post by: Filmcamera on August 27, 2019, 02:09:39 PM
1a =2.75, 1b = 2.70, 2a = 2.75, 2b = 2.75, 3a = 2.75, 3b = 2.70, 4a = 2.75, 4b = 2.80
the measures valve clearances for the largest size that WILL go under the gap between the bucket and the cam shaft are
1a = 0.10, 1b = 0.10, 2a = 0.13, 2b = .15, 3a = 0.15, 3b= 0.15, 4a = 0.13, 4a = 0.13
So my math gives me the following buckets I need to buy to get all the intake valves into the higher end of spec
1a = 2.65, 1b = 2.60, 2a = 2.70, 2b = 2.70, 3a = 2.70, 3b, 2.65, 4a = 2.70, 4b = 2.75
Agree? Disagree?
I have heard some people say it is ok to reuse an existing bucket on a different valve and others say it is not. It would only save me 3 buckets so I am not that bothered either way but what is the general consensus?
Also I found one minor issue when I put everything back together again (it is going to be at least two weeeks before the new buckets get here and I did not want to leave all the guts of the engine open until then)
This is a picture of the top camshaft sprocket before I undid it and removed the camshaft
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/3823-270819140608-24322074.jpeg)
This is a picture when I reinstalled it
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/3823-270819140608-24322056.jpeg)
As you can see it is slightly misaligned compared to before.
I think that is because the camshaft was put back in a slightly different position? I am not planning on riding the bike before replacing the buckets so I have to disassemble everything again anyway but I assume it is very important I get the camshaft back in exactly the same place it was before I took it off last time?
Post by: Scott_ on August 27, 2019, 06:21:54 PM
Did you turn the crankshaft any? like when trying to break the bolts loose.
I've re-used/swapped buckets between my 2 bikes and haven't noticed any issues.
Post by: Filmcamera on August 27, 2019, 06:33:31 PM
Post by: billday on August 28, 2019, 06:52:33 AM
Your price per shim sounds high. Lots of Yamahas use the same (?19 mm) shim, hang out on some of their forums to find suppliers.
Post by: Filmcamera on August 28, 2019, 07:06:44 AM
What about the math, does it seem right?
Post by: alabrew on August 28, 2019, 06:12:59 PM
+1 on your numbers, but don't trust me There are several calculators out there, search bmwlt.com, if you want another confirmation.
On the rear ends of the camshafts, there is a slot cut. It should be parallel to the slot in the exhaust camshaft. There is a special tool to line them up, but $$$.
Hard to put them back on wrong since it would mean that two valves would have to be compressed.
You relieved the tension on the timing chain before removing the sprocket?
You may want to consider pulling the hall effect cover and making sure the timing is correct.
Post by: Filmcamera on August 28, 2019, 06:34:53 PM
I had to remove the hall sensor to be able to get the timing chain cover off, but I used a sharpie to mark lines on it so it is easy to line it up to the same timing it had before, which always seemed fine.
Ok I will look for a calculator to double check my math.
Thanks again
Post by: Scott_ on August 28, 2019, 08:03:06 PM
When you torque the gear bolts, use a backing wrench on the hex surface of the shaft, should be next to cyl 3b lobe.
Post by: Filmcamera on September 18, 2019, 02:45:19 PM
Now the valves are in spec should I do a new leak down test, compression test and also balance the throttle bodies again?
Post by: Laitch on September 18, 2019, 02:57:55 PM
Now the valves are in spec should I do a new leak down test, compression test and also balance the throttle bodies again?Balance the throttle bodies first. The two procedures have a combined effect on engine performance. Throttle body balance should always follow valve clearance adjustment.
Post by: Filmcamera on September 18, 2019, 04:36:08 PM