Post by: TommyT on July 21, 2019, 08:55:25 PM
I was pretty sure it was fuel problem but I first checked for spark, that's good, also the plug was dry. I then check for fuel and pressure at the injector rail, 36 psi...good. I read that the Halls sensor can go bad when the bike gets hot, so I changed that after I read this:"The I.C.U. is in control of the L.E Jetronic. the fuel injectors are triggered by the Halleffect sensor(s) (Camshaft Position Sensors or Hallsensors) same as the ignition coils. The Fuel Injectors activate after the Hallsensors give there signal to the I.C.U. then to the L.E. Jetronic giving signal to ground the circuit for the Fuel Injectors. " But the new Hall sensor did not change anything. I would guess that injectors are not firing, since the plug was dry and I smell no gas while I try to start it. What should I check next???
Post by: TommyT on July 21, 2019, 09:16:31 PM
Post by: Laitch on July 21, 2019, 10:36:37 PM
4 pin plug, I cleaned it when I had the tank off..besides does that control the function of the fuel pump?Yes. It supplies current to operate it.
I would guess that injectors are not firing, since the plug was dry and I smell no gas while I try to start it. What should I check next???Check the fuel injectors' function. Are you following a troubleshooting guide?
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on July 21, 2019, 11:29:23 PM
Post by: TommyT on July 22, 2019, 06:06:03 AM
Check the fuel injectors' function. Are you following a troubleshooting guide?
[/quote]
Fuel injectors function check....pull a electrical connect and check for voltage jump on a pin in the connector while trying the starter?
No not following a guide, I usually do the check for spark/fuel and then work my down the path of the failure of those. I looked at the top reason list here on MB for no start. Cleaned the 4 pin, did the starter cleaning trick, ignition switch seems good, never had any random electrical problems in the past, up til now it has been solid since I owned it for over 5,000 miles. Is there a more detail guide here on MB I should follow?
Post by: Laitch on July 22, 2019, 08:40:32 AM
Fuel injectors function check....pull a electrical connect and check for voltage jump on a pin in the connector while trying the starter?Almost. It should have ~12.5V ignition On, not running, then pulsating negative voltage when cranking. Remove fuel pump fuse to assure the engine won't start.
Post by: TommyT on July 22, 2019, 02:10:56 PM
Almost. It should have ~12.5V ignition On, not running, then pulsating negative voltage when cranking. Remove fuel pump fuse to assure the engine won't start.
No voltage at either pin. ???
Post by: johnny on July 22, 2019, 03:18:14 PM
poast up some pictures of this no start moto... the only way i can be one with the whack moto is to see it...
i like to find a mostly isolated place... getts into mostly comfortable position. with my jc whitney catalouge of that build date... be at peace... look within... accept all as created... connect with my senses... look at the whack moto... use my mind to connect with the whack moto and be one with the whack moto... then unwhack the moto...
j o
Post by: natalena on July 22, 2019, 05:41:39 PM
use my mind to connect with the whack moto and be one with the whack moto... then unwhack the moto...
Do you ever find that you can't get a good connection with whack moto due to your inner 4-pin corrosion, or lack of proper grounding in this plain of existence?
At what point does CBP and/or eyeball pizza come in?
Post by: TommyT on July 22, 2019, 08:58:32 PM
I am at the point of trying anything.....to unwhack the whack.
A picture of the problem child in better times:
(http://[attachment id=1][/attachment])
Oh, the build date was 9/18/1989.......start unwhacking.....
Post by: Laitch on July 22, 2019, 09:10:57 PM
No voltage at either pin. ???Is this response meant to convey that you could not get a static voltage reading with the ignition switch On from any of the injectors, and when you cranked the engine none of the injectors had a pulsating negative voltage? If so, with what were you measuring them and where were you placing the probes?
I am at the point of trying anything.....to unwhack the whack.I suggest that you continue to be methodical while j o is being paranormal in support.
Post by: TommyT on July 22, 2019, 09:43:07 PM
Is this response meant to convey that you could not get a static voltage reading with the ignition switch On from any of the injectors, and when you cranked the engine none of the injectors had a pulsating negative voltage? If so, with what were you measuring them and where were you placing the probes?I could not get a static voltage reading with ignition switch on. Figured there was no need to crank the engine to test for a pulsating negative if I had no voltage to start. I only tested one connector, they are very hard to unplug the connector, i picked the injector closest to the battery. It was easiest to get the clip off and that one was still hard to do.
I suggest that you continue to be methodical while j o is being paranormal in support.
I place my positive probe in the female end of the connector and my negative on a good grounding bolt on the frame that I tested by measuring my battery voltage first to test my ground selection. I tried both wires.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on July 22, 2019, 11:01:06 PM
Loose connector at the Jetronic? Seems to be lot of that going around lately.
Have you checked it?
Post by: TommyT on July 23, 2019, 04:56:05 AM
Have you checked it?Yes I did. I removed it and reseated it. Contacts looked good. Also checked the ICU plug.
Post by: Scott_ on July 23, 2019, 07:08:46 AM
I could not get a static voltage reading with ignition switch on. Figured there was no need to crank the engine to test for a pulsating negative if I had no voltage to start. I only tested one connector, they are very hard to unplug the connector, i picked the injector closest to the battery. It was easiest to get the clip off and that one was still hard to do.I'm thinking that the engine has to be turning for the ignition ECU to activate both the fuel pump AND the fuel injection relay.(but I could be wrong on that one)
I place my positive probe in the female end of the connector and my negative on a good grounding bolt on the frame that I tested by measuring my battery voltage first to test my ground selection. I tried both wires.
The Green/Red wire is the +12v to the injectors. It comes thru the 'fuel injection relay'(in the electrical box under the fuel tank) and direct from the battery(no fuse). The power to the relay coil comes from the right handle bar kill switch, and before it gets to the kill switch it comes from the ignition switch.... all un-fused direct from the battery.
The relay coil ground is controlled from the ignition ECU, the same controller that activates the spark plugs.
There are at least 4 different plug in harness connections that can be dirty, (ignition switch, rh bar switch, injector bundle, injection relay), the kill switch could be going bad, the relay could be going bad and/or have bad contacts.
Fuse #1 is also fed from the ignition switch/kill switch chain, so it can be a good testing point to check power. If you can measure +12v at fuse 1 with the key on, then you should also be getting the same +12v at the injection relay coil.(it's easier to measure at the fuse).
To check the relay socket:
30 is +12v power in from battery
87 is switched power out to injectors and fuse #6(another good place to test if relay is working)--you will find 2 terminals marked 87.
86 is incoming switched +12v from the ignition/kill switch for the coil
85 is the coil ground output to the ignition control ECU
Post by: TommyT on July 23, 2019, 07:09:27 AM
Update, looks like Scott answered, very well, my question while I was typing this. Thank you Scott you have given me a path to check today.
Post by: TommyT on July 23, 2019, 05:44:14 PM
Results:
Fuse #1 is also fed from the ignition switch/kill switch chain, so it can be a good testing point to check power. If you can measure +12v at fuse 1 with the key on, then you should also be getting the same +12v at the injection relay coil.(it's easier to measure at the fuse).
To check the relay socket:
30 is +12v power in from battery
87 is switched power out to injectors and fuse #6(another good place to test if relay is working)--you will find 2 terminals marked 87.
86 is incoming switched +12v from the ignition/kill switch for the coil
85 is the coil ground output to the ignition control ECU
Fuse #1 has 12v
Fuse #6 0v
Relay
#30 has 12v
#87 has 0v
#86 has 12v
#85 has 0v
I am not sure what this telling me....since I power at fuse #1 does that say the ignition switch and kill switch are okay? Also since #30 has 12v then power is getting to the relay from the kill switch? 87 is dead which confirms my measuring at the injector plug, but why is it dead? I am not sure what #85 does.
Where is the injector bundle?
Thanks, tom
Post by: Laitch on July 23, 2019, 07:53:43 PM
I am not sure what #85 does.Read the list Scott_ gave you.
If your moto's horn works, pull the fuel injection relay, substitute the horn relay for it then check for power.
Post by: TommyT on July 23, 2019, 08:18:07 PM
Read the list Scott_ gave you.#85, I guess I should have wrote I don't understand " coil ground output to the ignition control ECU" does/mean.
If your moto's horn works, pull the fuel injection relay, substitute the horn relay for it then check for power.
What is a coil ground output, the term ground output confuses me, how does a ground have output?
My horn does work, where do I check for power, at the fuel injector plug or fuse #6?
Post by: TommyT on July 23, 2019, 09:58:12 PM
I did notice it said I should for voltage at the injector plug while hitting the starter, not just when the key is on. Is that right or should there be 12v once the key is turn to on?
Post by: Laitch on July 24, 2019, 12:40:18 AM
I did notice it said I should for voltage at the injector plug while hitting the starter, not just when the key is on. Is that right or should there be 12v once the key is turn to on?One of the challenging parts of learning diagnosis and treatment is knowing when to believe what you read and who to believe. We all make our own way through that swamp. It's faith-based. I direct you to Reply #5.
Post by: TommyT on July 24, 2019, 05:55:43 AM
One of the challenging parts of learning diagnosis and treatment is knowing when to believe what you read and who to believe. We all make our own way through that swamp. It's faith-based. I direct you to Reply #5.Yes I feel like I am in swamp and many distant voices whispering which way out....ha.
If I follow your redirect correctly I think you are saying is to check voltage again at the injector plug with the key on with the horn relay in the FI relay socket.
Post by: Scott_ on July 24, 2019, 06:38:30 AM
Post by: Scott_ on July 24, 2019, 06:53:08 AM
Read the list Scott_ gave you.
If your moto's horn works, pull the fuel injection relay, substitute the horn relay for it then check for power.
That won't work, the injection relay has an extra output pin that the horn relay doesn't have.... The horn relay and load shed relay are the same, but different than the injection relay
Post by: TommyT on July 24, 2019, 06:59:33 AM
TT, if you say that the fuel pump runs, then you should have power to the injectors-- they come from the same relay output.Yes the pump is working.
Did you have another reply where you asked me if I was measuring relay pins voltage with the relay in? I can't see that post now, did you take it down?
For some reason since it was very hot the day I rode and I found out that my fan was not working then, but there was no temp warning light, could the temp sensor go/be bad? From the FI troubleshooting guide it says that is part of fuse #6.
Post by: daveson on July 24, 2019, 09:40:08 AM
Connect pins 85 and 86 to a battery. Do you have continuity between 30 and both 87 pins?
Just accept Bert's guide, what have you got at the injector plug while cranking?
Post by: TommyT on July 24, 2019, 04:05:21 PM
It's the same output but there are two output pins, you need both (unless your resistor is stuffed too :giggles :giggles) if your lucky you only need to replace your relay to get power back to your injectors.
I hope that is all it is...
Quote
Connect pins 85 and 86 to a battery. Do you have continuity between 30 and both 87 pins?Working on this test...
Quote
Just accept Bert's guide, what have you got at the injector plug while cranking?.
I get about 10.5 v
Post by: TommyT on July 24, 2019, 09:06:58 PM
This bike should be running. ???
Post by: daveson on July 24, 2019, 10:15:52 PM
You havn't tested the relay yet. As a further test, with the contacts closed, would both 87 pins power a headlight?
Keep going through Bert's guide and see where it leads you.
Post by: Scott_ on July 25, 2019, 07:00:18 AM
I get about 10.5 v
That would be about what I would expect to see with the starter turning the motor at the same time and engine not running.
Like daveson mentioned, keep going with Berts flow chart.
I'm asking the following for clarification, to make sure we didn't miss something.
In your 1st post you mentioned 36psi fuel pressure(which is good), where did you measure this and how. A gauge tapped into the actual line, or just plugged into the end of the hose coming out of the fuel tank.
When was the last time the fuel filter was changed..... A restricted filter can allow static pressure to build to closed injectors but then when they open and relieve the pressure there would not be enough flow to do any good.
A bad fuel pressure regulator can also cause you grief.
Post by: koapono on July 25, 2019, 07:51:55 AM
Post by: TommyT on July 25, 2019, 08:05:09 AM
That would be about what I would expect to see with the starter turning the motor at the same time and engine not running.On the voltage level, also my battery was starting to get run down, it might have been below 12v because after a couple more starts the battery needed charging to turn the starter again.
Like daveson mentioned, keep going with Berts flow chart.
I'm asking the following for clarification, to make sure we didn't miss something.
In your 1st post you mentioned 36psi fuel pressure(which is good), where did you measure this and how. A gauge tapped into the actual line, or just plugged into the end of the hose coming out of the fuel tank.
When was the last time the fuel filter was changed..... A restricted filter can allow static pressure to build to closed injectors but then when they open and relieve the pressure there would not be enough flow to do any good.
A bad fuel pressure regulator can also cause you grief.
I use a pressure tester hooked up in line with the line going into the injector rail. It took a couple of bumps on the starter to pump the pressure up, but the line and rail was drain of gas while hooking up the tester, so that seemed to be expected.
I changed the filter earlier on in the troubleshooting when I pulled the pump out to look at the screen on the bottom if it. Everthing looked very clean in the tank and the pump.
Post by: TommyT on July 25, 2019, 08:18:46 AM
just asking the obvious as it hasn't been mentioned: do you have enough compression in all cylinders to add the 3rd element required for combustion (spark, fuel and heat)?I think it is okay, it ran well when it ran. But I know if a K bike sits too long it loses the oil film in the cylinder walls and that can drop the compression enought to cause a no start. There is a Chris Harris you tube video where he squirts a small amount of oil in each cylinder in a bike that would not start and then it starts. But the bike had sat many months on its center stand and mine has only been 2 weeks now. Also a number of people posted that putting the bike on the side stand gets oil back into the cylinders and I did leave the bike over night on the side stand a couple of days ago.
Post by: TommyT on July 25, 2019, 11:34:58 AM
I made some small jumper wires and connected 85 and 86 to 12v. Tested for continuity between 30 and 87, zip, none....So is this test opening or closing the relay via the 12v on 85 and 86 and that should provide a connection between 30 and 87?
Connect pins 85 and 86 to a battery. Do you have continuity between 30 and both 87 pins?
I did try this on another new FI relay I just got and got the same result. ???
Post by: Laitch on July 25, 2019, 01:18:57 PM
Are they wet?
Post by: Scott_ on July 25, 2019, 05:42:26 PM
Post by: TommyT on July 25, 2019, 06:47:15 PM
Thank you all for your suggestions and encouragement in helping to troubleshoot this no start problem. I have learned a lot.
Post by: Laitch on July 25, 2019, 06:52:31 PM
Idecided put the gas tank on the bike this afternoon and see if it would start.No doubt about it. Having a fuel tank with some fuel in it mounted on the moto and connected to the fuel system is a big help in the starting process. :giggles
Post by: johnny on July 25, 2019, 09:55:44 PM
this is what im thinking... put fuel in the tank and it will start...
try that and report back here...
nostartnofuel.png (164.34 kB . 737x457 - viewed 302 times)j o
Post by: Scott_ on July 26, 2019, 07:01:09 AM
I made some small jumper wires and connected 85 and 86 to 12v. Tested for continuity between 30 and 87, zip, none....So is this test opening or closing the relay via the 12v on 85 and 86 and that should provide a connection between 30 and 87?
I did try this on another new FI relay I just got and got the same result. ???
I see you got it running,, congrats...
About your question, putting +12v(battery + ) on 86 and ground(battery - ) on 85 should cause the relay to close and give you continuity between 30 and the 87/87b terminals. You should be able to hear the relay make an audible 'click' when you energize it.
I haven't tried it myself in a number of years, but I believe that these relay coils are polarity sensitive(a lot of DC coils are, but not all), and if you connect it backwards, it won't work.
Post by: TommyT on July 26, 2019, 04:00:18 PM
I see you got it running,, congrats...
About your question, putting +12v(battery + ) on 86 and ground(battery - ) on 85 should cause the relay to close and give you continuity between 30 and the 87/87b terminals. You should be able to hear the relay make an audible 'click' when you energize it.
I haven't tried it myself in a number of years, but I believe that these relay coils are polarity sensitive(a lot of DC coils are, but not all), and if you connect it backwards, it won't work.
Thanks Scott for all of your help.
Relay, good to know. I got a spare FI relay I will try that, I did not think about reversing the current flow.
Next thing to do, get the fan working....
Post by: daveson on July 26, 2019, 06:21:10 PM
..."how does a ground have output? " here's a way to think about it. When you put a battery in your brick you connect positive, then you connect negative and you then have a circuit. It was positive until it touched the negative post. When the computer decides the time is right, it accepts negative from pin 85 of the fuel injection relay so power goes from 30 to 87.
Your getting into the inner intimate parts of your brick now, the more intimate you get, the more you'll love it.
Post by: Martin on July 26, 2019, 06:41:29 PM
Regards Martin.