Coolant/antifreeze in cylinder, but not oil

[bitsa]

Time for someone to say time out guys, we're all on the same side here, we're just trying to help Mark out, that's all, no big deal.

Come on Gryph try to understand what I'm on about, I never asked for a chemical analysis. What I was looking for was a comment like, it's green like my coolant, or it smells like coolant, or something like that.

Before I posted the recent schrocketeer question I thought I hope this doesn't come across like a suck eggs comment, and you helped me with that, but even so he felt he had to swallow some pride. Maybe my English was too sloppy this time.

Mark please believe me this was a genuine question with no intent to offend. You did say thanks for comments, well that was mine, given for free, with the slim hope that I might be able to save you some time.

Gryph, please don't stop posting, I don't think it's fair on Mark, let Mark sort the wheat from the shaff, I think he already has.

Here here, don't go just because (I presume) you had a bad day. I know I did reply with what could be construed as attitude via my flammability comparison, but you must admit that your attitude wasn't the greatest also? And that was what triggered my retort.  I'm not trying to bash on you man, you're a respected member here and way more brick experience than I'll ever have just, we're all trying to collectively help to avoid wasted time/funds when the engine could be junk even with a new head.

Seriously hope you've not taken too much offence at what was said on my part, was intended more as banter/"shop talk" than outright questioning your experience!

[caveman]

TMG,
Sorry if it was something I seid. I know you are dealing with other sh!t, please don't let it get you down.

[bitsa]

TMG,
Sorry if it was something I seid. I know you are dealing with other sh!t, please don't let it get you down.

I wasn't aware, not being a regular, that TMG had (more than normal) "behind the scenes" things going on & put it down to a bad day. Apologies again if I've upset you, kinda feel bad now.

[Mark.r]

Hi Everyone,
It looks like I missed a few things while on travel for work. I want to thanks everybody for their input so far. I decided to pull the head. Partially because I had pulled so much off prior to getting everyone's replys and partially because it's gonna have to happen anyway. This is where I am now, for better or worse.

When I dropped the exhaust it was full of antifreeze, so it must have been a pretty serious leak, and kind of explained where it all went.

I got the head off, without too much headache, but something seems off to me.

when I loosened the last head bolt is just fell off the block. Not my normal experience removing a head. The gasket cam of easily as well which was also something I am not used to. Maybe it's because it's a bike, a bmw or I don't know, but in my experience with small engines and automobiles they don't come apart this easy.

Anyway, all the head bolts were tight and required a good amount of effort to loosen. So most likely they were torqued properly???

Also does the wear pattern look like the pistons have been honed recently or is that how these bike wear?

Attached are photos of the head and block. I am sure some good points will be brought up in the next few days. Thanks for your input in advance.

[Mark.r]

Pics

[Mark.r]

Ware pattern

[The Mighty Gryphon]

Good to hear the head bolts all came out okay.  I wasn't that lucky with mine.

The hone marks in the cylinders were done, I believe, before the Nikosil coating was applied.  The coating is so hard that they are still visible in engines that have a lot more than 100,000 miles on them.  They hold the oil and reduce ring wear.

My eyes aren't good enough to comment on any of the photos.  Have you looked at the head gasket and the head for signs of where the leak might be?  It may be necessary to look in the exhaust port as well. 

Do you see any signs of cracks or pores in the head casting?  How are the surfaces of the block and head?  Look carefully at the wall between the #3 cylinder and the coolant passage in the block.  Are there any unusually clean spots on the block and head mating surfaces?

Worse comes to worse you might need to have a machine shop check it just to be sure there are no stress cracks that open when the head is torqued. 

[The Mighty Gryphon]

Have you been able to check the surface of the head for flatness?  Is it possible the head is warped?

What was the coolant level when you first got the bike?  Are there any signs it was run with low coolant?  That could allow the engine to overheat enough to warp the head. 

As far as the condition of the cylinders, pistons, and head, they look like my K100 did when it had about 90,000 miles on it and ran great.  The only problem it had was that it was using a little more oil than I liked.  Turned out that synthetic 10W30 likes to sneak past the rings a little more than the 20W50 BMW recommends.

[Mark.r]

What does a machine shop look for? I can bring it in to work and run a dial indicator across it in the mail if that will tell me what I need to know.

Edit:
When I got the bike the coolant level was below the head. It had been sitting for 12 years or so.

I will try to do a closer Inspection tonight.

[The Mighty Gryphon]

Machine shops have ways to test for microscopic cracks you can't see with the naked eye.  A good magnifier will do at home.  A good steel straight edge across the surfaces can tell you if the head is warped. 

What does the head gasket look like?  Are there signs of coked up oil around the valve springs and cams?  That would be a sign of overheating. 

[Mark.r]

No cooked up oil. The gasket looks ok??? It was wet for sure. I am still amazed how easy the head came off.

[daveson]

I was surprised the number three exhaust valve looks like the other two, thought it would be washed clean and more white. I'm looking at a small phone screen.

My spare K100 engine also has the same hone marks.

Here's another bit of unlikely wishful thinking. I wonder if the previous owner removed the head, and said this is beyond me, I'll put it all back and sell it. Because I'm selling it, I'm not buying a new head gasket. If you reinstall an old, compressed head gasket to normal spec, it might just leak, probably not that much though.

I would phone the previous owner and say thanks I'm very happy with the bike, could you help me with a bit of history about it, any work you did, any work you got done.

Inlet valve three is cleaner, piston three looks like it has more carbon, just saying.

One of the things I've done in the past to stop a leaking old head gasket, is to torque the bolts to just three foot pounds more than spec. But not once removed though. You wouldn't think three foot pounds could make that much difference, but it can.

.

[caveman]

Mark,
Thanks for the pictures. Unfortunately I have little to offer.

Did the heads on the head bolts look like they may had bin removed previously?

[daveson]

Caveman is there much merit in what I'm seeing, do you think? If it overheated then a coolant leak in cylinder 3, shouldn't that cylinder be looking much more clean than the other two? All three cylinders look wet. Let's say it wasn't leaking then the gasket was removed then replaced, then all three could be wet, and cylinder three more so. Bit of a long shot, yes.

We don't know if the head is warped yet, that could change the story a lot.

I'm also interested in Gryph's and bitsa's thoughts about this, and Mark's.

[bitsa]

Agreed it doesn't look like it's run for any real time with the leak, and given the rate of the leak I'm wondering if it is indeed something that occurred since last time it ran.

Mark, do you recall when you first looked if there was antifreeze/coolant or plain water? Another possibility being it froze and cracked something.

I do like the used gasket theory, but then why would they bother torquing everything down if they threw it together?

[Laitch]

Machine shops have ways to test for microscopic cracks you can't see with the naked eye. 

One of the ways is explained at this link to the ASE website. ASE—not to be confused with SAE—is the abbreviation for The National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence. The jury seems undecided whether to have Excellence is our last name as a slogan. 

[daveson]

I do like the used gasket theory, but then why would they bother torquing everything down if they threw it together?

Wishful thinking, I suffer from it too.

He might say if it doesn't work, I'll sell it as a parts bike.

[Mark.r]

Depending on how this goes parts bike is not off the table ...

[The Mighty Gryphon]

Previous owner may have pulled the head, didn't see any obvious damage and after doing a quick look at the head gasket decided to retorque the head with the old gasket.

I would still recommend checking the head for flatness using a steel straight edge.  A good cleaning and a check for cracks is also a good idea.

[Mark.r]

That will be my next step. I'm going to clean it tonight, and check it at work tomorrow with a granite slab and inspection camera.

[The Mighty Gryphon]

Great!  I was going to suggest finding a surface plate to check it.

[caveman]

Caveman is there much merit in what I'm seeing, do you think? If it overheated then a coolant leak in cylinder 3, shouldn't that cylinder be looking much more clean than the other two? All three cylinders look wet. Let's say it wasn't leaking then the gasket was removed then replaced, then all three could be wet, and cylinder three more so. Bit of a long shot, yes.

We don't know if the head is warped yet, that could change the story a lot.

I'm also interested in Gryph's and bitsa's thoughts about this, and Mark's.

Every blown head gasket or cracked head I have dealt with was easy to see when disassembled. Now water cooled intakes or porous wet liners not so much, but I have never pulled down an engine that has not ran for several years without intending to do a full rebuild.