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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: bluebossa on July 04, 2018, 06:56:28 AM
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So - I picked my K75 from the shop up yesterday and rode it 8 miles home.
It was getting late and England were playing Columbia on TV, so I nipped out and I checked Oil level window and couldn't see any level - I tried to top up but still couldn't see any level appear and it was getting dark - hey ho, wait till the morning.
When on the drive it seemed like it had very low/non existent coolant, Off to the shops and I topped up with Anti Freeze and Distilled 60/40 - eek it took 3 litres, so it was bone dry? How the hell did it run home?? Garage had run the Bike for 2 hours as they had replaced Fuel Pump...
Next I thought I'd change Oil so undid the Sump and Eek - a Gloopy mess promptly swamped my Drive... Grrrr
Now frustrated and depressed after a 1 year restoration I guess it's a Gasket of some sort or is the Engine shot?
What next - pics attached, thanks in advance...
:musicboohoo:
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The only 4 ways I can think of:
Both seals bad in the water pump, though the oil pressure would be higher than the water pressure, and more likely to push the oil to the coolant side.
Cracked block.
Cracked head.
Bad head gasket.
Has any work been done on the motor during your restoration?
A head gasket can be replaced easy enough(if you are mechanically inclined), but if it is beyond that, you may find that a good used motor may be more cost effective.
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The only 4 ways I can think of:
Both seals bad in the water pump, though the oil pressure would be higher than the water pressure, and more likely to push the oil to the coolant side.
Cracked block.
Cracked head.
Bad head gasket.
Has any work been done on the motor during your restoration?
A head gasket can be replaced easy enough(if you are mechanically inclined), but if it is beyond that, you may find that a good used motor may be more cost effective.
Thanks Scott - no, nothing done to Motor during restoration, new paint, electrics and Fuel pump fitted which killed it last week on it's original return home... It was running sweet, seemed to run fine home.
I suspect it's stood around for the last few years, been off the road for the last 12 months with me and guys at the workshop reckoned they had checked levels yesterday, and ran it down the road, so it ate the water on the way home - the 8 miles.
I hope it's the Water/Oil Pump seals, seen a couple of threads on that... and a Video on YouTube for a K1100 - seems like same Pump design.
Motor has 52.5k Miles on the Clock...
Looks like kit is £30 from Motorworks
https://www.motorworks.co.uk/vlive/Shop/Parts.php?T=5&NU=15&M=40&Ct=GA&SbCt=BA_15_40_GA_75
I'd hate it to be the Head or Gasket... don't fancy that job
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what was it in the shop for? having 3 liters of coolant in the oil makes me wonder if someone confused the oil and radiator caps :mbird
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Garage had run the Bike for 2 hours as they had replaced Fuel Pump...
At least you've established that this garage should be avoided.
- They didn't check bike's condition—especially the condition of the oil—before work was started on it.
- According to you, they claim to have found it necessary to run the bike for two hours as part of a fuel pump installation. Two minutes would have been enough.
+1 to Scott's observations.
There could be another source and condition governing this mess though. You haven't indicated that you had analyzed the engine's condition after you bought it; you assert it hadn't been run for years. Nobody knows if that low coolant level was caused by boil-over just prior to its storage and subsequent years of neglect. Depending upon the conditions of its storage, a bike neglected for years could have sludge form in the crankcase caused by significant condensation occurring intermittently within it. Cleaning the sump, flushing the engine with clean oil and running it after a second oil change might be all that is needed, if you're lucky.
Feeling lucky? :yes
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. . . pics attached . . .
What's the labeled capacity of that fluid catch-pan?
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4 litres
What's the labeled capacity of that fluid catch-pan?
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It was back in for Fuel issues, stopped running shortly after getting it back.. new fuel pump
Thanks Scott - no, nothing done to Motor during restoration, new paint, electrics and Fuel pump fitted which killed it last week on it's original return home... It was running sweet, seemed to run fine home.
I suspect it's stood around for the last few years, been off the road for the last 12 months with me and guys at the workshop reckoned they had checked levels yesterday, and ran it down the road, so it ate the water on the way home - the 8 miles.
I hope it's the Water/Oil Pump seals, seen a couple of threads on that... and a Video on YouTube for a K1100 - seems like same Pump design.
Motor has 52.5k Miles on the Clock...
Looks like kit is £30 from Motorworks
https://www.motorworks.co.uk/vlive/Shop/Parts.php?T=5&NU=15&M=40&Ct=GA&SbCt=BA_15_40_GA_75
I'd hate it to be the Head or Gasket... don't fancy that job
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I don't think Bike had sat for years... it was on the road in 2016
Just a few months... Been in for paint though since late 2017 so not run for 8/9 months I guess.
I filled up with water and antifreeze this morning...
Garage are Bike restorers and specialists here..At least you've established that this garage should be avoided.
- They didn't check bike's condition—especially the condition of the oil—before work was started on it.
- According to you, they claim to have found it necessary to run the bike for two hours as part of a fuel pump installation. Two minutes would have been enough.
+1 to Scott's observations.
There could be another source and condition governing this mess though. You haven't indicated that you had analyzed the engine's condition after you bought it; you assert it hadn't been run for years. Nobody knows if that low coolant level was caused by boil-over just prior to its storage and subsequent years of neglect. Depending upon the conditions of its storage, a bike neglected for years could have sludge form in the crankcase caused by significant condensation occurring intermittently within it. Cleaning the sump, flushing the engine with clean oil and running it after a second oil change might be all that is needed, if you're lucky.
Feeling lucky? :yes
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4 litres
In my experience, that bike probably should have been smoking like a crackhead on the way home if a head gasket was involved. It should have overheated on the way, triggering the light in the instrument cluster. There should have been fluid leaks on the surface beneath the pump if it were compromised. It was back in for Fuel issues, stopped running shortly after getting it back.. new fuel pump
Is this comment in reference to the two-hour run at the garage? The timeline still isn't sensible.
I don't think Bike had sat for years...
Right. You wrote that it stood around for the last few years. Was it running in place? :giggles
Clean the sump and crankcase, do two oil and filter changes, review your coolant change, start it up and see what happens.
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Yeah, no smoke, white or otherwise on the way home... no major overheating or lights, ran like a good un.
Mate followed me in a car and said he saw quick oil puff on gear change but I pushing 60mph and Hugh revs..
Garage test drove it too and all was well.
Certainly nothing like a head gasket blow.
Garage says they had it running and all pipes got warm, levels fine water and oil and fan was kicking in... So sounds all good before I rode it home..
I think the 3 litres I put in got dumped straight into sumo. Filled up under Tank.
Pipes feel empty again..
When I restarted it gurgled to a halt after 30 seconds..
Would water pump seal failure allow this?In my experience, that bike probably should have been smoking like a crackhead on the way home. It should have overheated on the way, triggering the light in the instrument cluster. There should have been fluid leaks on the surface beneath the pump if it were compromised. Is this comment in reference to the two-hour run at the garage? The timeline still isn't sensible.Right. You wrote that it stood around for the last few years. Was it running in place? :giggles
Clean the sump and crankcase, do two oil and filter changes, review your coolant change, start it up and see what happens.
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Nah, I filled both and know which is which!
what was it in the shop for? having 3 liters of coolant in the oil makes me wonder if someone confused the oil and radiator caps :mbird
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I think the 3 litres I put in got dumped straight into sumo.
Would water pump seal failure allow this?
This is all easy to determine, including your questionable hypotheses. Remove the oil pan, if you haven't already. You'll need to do that anyway to clean up the mess in there. Lift the tank and dump three liters of distilled water into the radiator. If it flows out of the crankcase, you're brilliant.
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greetings...
its the 4 pin... trust me on this...
fixt the 4 pin... drain all fluids and renew with oe spec... do the engine oil and filter twice...
ride dangerously...
j o
Hey Johnny - what do you mean 4 Pin? Non comprendi?
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its the 4 pin... trust me on this...
fixt the 4 pin... drain all fluids and renew with oe spec... do the engine oil and filter twice...
Hey Johnny - what do you mean 4 Pin? Non comprendi?
When you did all the cleaning of all the connectors of your malfunctioning bike in this thread (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,10438.msg91601.html#msg91601), it was the connector under the right side of the tank that operates the fuel pump, among other things, so you should be able to find it. In that thread you claimed the problem was discovered to be the ignition switch and that it was resolved. Is this a different bike?
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When you did all the cleaning of all the connectors of your malfunctioning bike in this thread (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,10438.msg91601.html#msg91601), it was the connector under the right side of the tank that operates the fuel pump, among other things, so you should be able to find it. In that thread you claimed the problem was discovered to be the ignition switch and that it was resolved. Is this a different bike?
Different bike buddy... Another K75, mates bike had the ignition problems
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Different bike buddy... Another K75, mates bike had the ignition problems
Well, you were there cleaning it buddy, so that should jog your memory about the location of that connector.
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Well, you were there cleaning it buddy, so that should jog your memory about the location of that connector.
Hmmm, what has a Fuel pump connector got to do with water getting into the Oil?
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greetings...
you thought it was the fuel pump... you even took it to a dealer to replace your fuel pump... it was the 4 pin and still is... the dealer has everything f-ed up...
so fixt the 4 pin and clean up their fluid mess... do it now... or take it back to the dealer that f-ed all up...
tell them ideling a brick for 2 hours with no coolant is brilliant... they deserve a wanker award... you gotts wankers over there donts ya...
j o
Greetings Johnny
Thanks for the input... I didn't know it was the fuel pump... Garage diagnosed that.. it conked shortly after coming back and filling with fuel..
They had an Electrician check everything out and landed on Fuel pump... I haven't got a workshop or garage or even tools here so am using a reputable Bike garage to get it running.
Can you spare the time to explain what the four pin has to do with the water and oil mess?
What else does the four pin control and why would cause it lose all its coolant?
Just do not understand how they are related...
Apologies for my ignorance here, just want to understand the diagnoses you give...
Thank you for patience and always responding I value your and other forum users input very much.... I am very much a learner when it comes to K ownership
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Let me take a whack at this:
Shop gets non-running bike. No fuel pressure and pump isn't running because the infamous four pin connector is loose. Mechanic pulls tank and replaces fuel pump. Re-installs tank and connects four pin connector. Connector now powers pump. Starts engine and idles for 2(YIKES!!!) hours. Exhaust pipes and head get dull red. Head warps. Coolant gets into oil returns from head. Oil/coolant sludge too thick to show in oil sight glass.
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Let me take a whack at this:
Shop gets non-running bike. No fuel pressure and pump isn't running because the infamous four pin connector is loose. Mechanic pulls tank and replaces fuel pump. Re-installs tank and connects four pin connector. Connector now powers pump. Starts engine and idles for 2(YIKES!!!) hours. Exhaust pipes and head get dull red. Head warps. Coolant gets into oil returns from head. Oil/coolant sludge too thick to show in oil sight glass.
Would a K with a full cooling system and a working thermostat and fan - cutting in and out - run in-definitely without any damage?
It was empty this morning... but apparently was full when checked at garage...
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The exhaust system needs airflow to cool it. A stationary bike has none so the pipes get very hot. There are photos of bricks with glowing pipes. Some of that heat will go into the head. Very bad practice to idle a brick for more than 15 minutes without at least a little airflow.
I would guess that most good shops will put a fan on the engine and exhaust system. Maybe these guys forgot or figured with the radiator fan they didn't need to.
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Makes sense, so you're synopsis is Warped head? Sh1t means replacement Engine..
I was hoping water oil pump seals had blown..
I've asked garage to collect tomorrow and see what they find, they are good guys...
The exhaust system needs airflow to cool it. A stationary bike has none so the pipes get very hot. There are photos of bricks with glowing pipes. Some of that heat will go into the head. Very bad practice to idle a brick for more than 15 minutes without at least a little airflow.
I would guess that most good shops will put a fan on the engine and exhaust system. Maybe these guys forgot or figured with the radiator fan they didn't need to.
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Hmmm, what has a Fuel pump connector got to do with water getting into the Oil?
You'd need to ask johnny about that. I was just responding in English to your query in Italian. :yes
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greetings...
the mighty gryphoon eloquently answered that question...
j o
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Have you checked the weep hole between the water and oil pumps? I suppose it is possible that with a blocked cooling system pressure relief valve in the filler cap and a plugged weep hole coolant under high pressure in an overheating engine could feasibly push into the oil pump and then into the sump.
Of the two scenarios I can envision, I hope that is the problem as it will be a lot less expensive to correct.
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When I filled it up yesterday morning, I did notice lots of brown deposits on the water filler cap, it did seem all funked up, even though system was dry.. I took it to the kitchen and washed it up before refitting, didn't check to see that it was blocked though, as didn't know it was a thing... I haven't taken pump off.. what does the weep hole do?
Thanks again, helpful and here's hoping!Have you checked the weep hole between the water and oil pumps? I suppose it is possible that with a blocked cooling system pressure relief valve in the filler cap and a plugged weep hole coolant under high pressure in an overheating engine could feasibly push into the oil pump and then into the sump.
Of the two scenarios I can envision, I hope that is the problem as it will be a lot less expensive to correct.
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Just tuning in, when Bike came back originally, then conked, I cleaned up 4 pin.. plus greased it back up...
Hey Johnny - what do you mean 4 Pin? Non comprendi?
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what does the weep hole do?
The weep hole allows fluid that is bypassing seals to drip onto the underside of the pump or onto the pavement thereby indicating a leak in the pump system.
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Just took cap off, still gunky... seems like gauze is blocked, maybe this is the culprit?
Pic attached...time for a new one?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180706/f3f974b785f61ce199eb335241665d77.jpg)
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How long has that red stuff been in there?
Regardless of what else you might be doing on this bike, it sure looks to me like it's in desperate need of a cooling system flush. If what the photo shows in the filler is in the radiator I would be surprised if the engine didn't overheat every time you started it.
About the cap. An overnight in soak in vinegar would be a good start.
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Just got my garage, sump off, water in via cap and straight out the bottom around the oil filter... into a catch tray
Lovely...(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180714/4ec11fbd49858e3c4c4f7c9c760afdcd.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180714/a986478192961081a3bff8801ae7c1a2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180714/371f8f1f79137a056a2b20fc371592b3.jpg)
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greetings...
looks like somebody put dex in there which is a no no... that dex is prolly eating it alive from inside out...
j o
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Lift the tank and dump three liters of distilled water into the radiator. If it flows out of the crankcase, you're brilliant.
Just got my garage, sump off, water in via cap and straight out the bottom around the oil filter... into a catch tray
You're brilliant!
Any cracks or holes visible in the pump case? Did it flow quickly or trickle into the sump? Are the shaft seals tight or compromised? Is the impeller shaft loose? Have you looked up into the crankcase?
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Not looked up into Crankcase but it flowed fast, through in seconds .. impeller shaft seams to move freely...
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greetings...
looks like somebody put dex in there which is a no no... that dex is prolly eating it alive from inside out...
j o
What's dex?
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So the water went straight to the oil pan! :mbird did some make it to the pump? Man you must have a large crack/hole inside the engine somewhere.
Nice guys screw up too.. :nono.....Mighty Gryphon's analogy sadly may be accurate. And worse, they most likely will not own up to it. I have never heard of letting a bike run idle for two hours? WTF, :nono
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Guess if I block the hose that goes to the pump and then fill it, might reveal more now pump is off... Still not quite sure what I'm looking at... As then water would go via crankcase?
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What's dex?
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DexCool is GM's long-life organic acid technology (OAT) coolant used in all GM products for almost two decades. It is orange in color and looks almost pink in a surge tank or reservoir when diluted. In the early days there was an issue where DexCool would react to the silicone gasket material on the plastic intake manifolds causing leaks. The OAT technology is used in most all long-life coolants today and it is recommended that you NOT mix types.
I use Prestone long-life in my bricks.
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Guess if I block the hose that goes to the pump and then fill it, might reveal more now pump is off... Still not quite sure what I'm looking at... As then water would go via crankcase?
It'll take some inspection work for certain. Pour some distilled water via a funnel into the opening at the end of the channel to the right of the impeller.
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It'll take some inspection work for certain. Pour some distilled water via a funnel into the opening at the end of the channel to the right of the impeller.
I blocked both side hose and the opening you mention. Poured water and came out of block above Oil filter in a flood... Guess that means cracked somewhere? as pump is off now... #knackered then(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180714/60b65ac8b2a0f628965980f1b07529f3.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180714/05b7f515c1ff7d74b48c7de83d107c0d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180714/7e8964512806d827deed767eb74fa007.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180714/7793dbb05bb065412d263346eb0c7ac2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180714/a424d64072a6a5f45af804f4e060181d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180714/d7ee55c9df52a44a02a44739b10428c5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180714/b1ae18dc3fc211027a7e3a864b4f4f49.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180714/7af354a34b98d9512485bef8a623279b.jpg)
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DexCool is GM's long-life organic acid technology (OAT) coolant used in all GM products for almost two decades. It is orange in color and looks almost pink in a surge tank or reservoir when diluted. In the early days there was an issue where DexCool would react to the silicone gasket material on the plastic intake manifolds causing leaks. The OAT technology is used in most all long-life coolants today and it is recommended that you NOT mix types.
I use Prestone long-life in my bricks.
Thanks, never come across it...
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Short update after leaving the problem for a while - I couldn't face it for a few weeks so just needed to leave it sulking in the Garage.. while I re-grouped. After weighing up a Donor Bike, or Selling or Engine I've decided..... drum roll...
I decided to source a second hand Engine and pressed the button this evening on a 53k 94 Engine - planning a full Engine swop and then take a further dig into where the crack, hole, whatever is in the existing unit after swopping it over...
Wish me luck - all tips on Engine changes welcomed - seen the Video on YouTube and looks straightforward enough... will keep you all updated, thanks for the support...
Anything to check or overhaul mid change also welcomed... Gear position indicator already on the list...
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Short update after leaving the problem for a while - I couldn't face it for a few weeks so just needed to leave it sulking in the Garage.. while I re-grouped. After weighing up a Donor Bike, or Selling or Engine I've decided..... drum roll...
I decided to source a second hand Engine and pressed the button this evening on a 53k 94 Engine - planning a full Engine swop and then take a further dig into where the crack, hole, whatever is in the existing unit after swopping it over...
Wish me luck - all tips on Engine changes welcomed - seen the Video on YouTube and looks straightforward enough... will keep you all updated, thanks for the support...
Anything to check or overhaul mid change also welcomed... Gear position indicator already on the list...
that seems the quickest and most cost effective way to go. I'm glad there are so many donor bricks around,
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Scud did a two-bricks-to-one project in which he swapped engines, among other things.
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,7638.0.html
I did a similar thing and put the engine from my first K75 (which had frame damage from a front-ender) onto Gary Weaver's infamous '94 K75 frame but most of it was repeating Scud's excellent thread so I didn't bother to document it. The downside of what you're doing is that you don't have the disassembly preceding the reassembly like Scud and I did. There are a lot of details that doing a tear-down first could help with. I recommend reading the Scud thread in its entirety.
BTW I built two engine dollies from plywood and 8 casters from Harbor Freight. The extra engine is still on the one dolly way in the corner of the garage. The other one currently has my sidecar tub while I work on the tug bike. You can never have too many dollies!
Good luck!