Author Topic: Added Headlight Relays-- Battery died  (Read 2010 times)

Offline bobvans

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Added Headlight Relays-- Battery died
« on: January 09, 2021, 04:35:05 PM »
Well I had something interesting happen today.  I changed the headlight on my 96 K1100RS to an LED a couple of months ago and thought I would also add the headlight relays that everyone's been talking about.  So ordered the setup from Beaver Electric and just today got it hooked up. 

When I finished the install, I turned the ignition on... headlight turned on nice and bright... neutral light lit up nice and bright... I hit the ignition... the engine reluctantly turned over once and stopped.  I let up off the starter button, now the green neutral light was not lit, lights were off, and ignition did nothing when I hit the start button.

I putzed around with the battery a bit to see if I inadvertently left something disconnected or shorted something.  All looked good.  Tried to jump start it but that didn't do anything... still no neutral light or headlights.  All fuses looked good.  Put a voltmeter to the battery and it was barely putting out any voltage... like 0.004V.  It was still on the trickle charger but it was blinking red, indicating the battery was not connected properly.  What!?

Ultimately pulled the battery thinking maybe I shorted it when I was putting the battery holder in place and I killed it.  Was preparing to go buy a new one but thought I'd check voltage again now that it was all disconnected.  Voltage was now a little over 3 volts!  Hooked the trickle charger to it and it indicated proper connection and started charging the battery... I could see the voltage slowly but steadily increasing.  So now I'm' wondering what the heck happened.

I'm still thinking I may have accidentally shorted the battery when installing the battery hold down bracket because the plastic cover that sits over the positive terminal was just sitting ontop of the terminal and may have slide out of position.  But if I did, seems it would still be bad once I disconnected everything.  Plus the ignition did turn on and headlights turned on and it even turned the engine over, albeit barely.  Behaved like a weak battery.

The only thing I added was the headlight relay wiring so perhaps that's bad... but it's fused so if there was something wrong with it, it would have blown the fuse to protect the battery.  Plus the headlight turned on fine initially but it's almost like it sucked all the juice out of the battery before it had a chance to start.  If that's the case, it seems it would still have allowed the trickle charger to charge the battery back up but it was indicating a bad connection and didn't start charging until it was completed disconnected from the bike.

My plan is to reconnect the battery once it has a full charge, minus the head light relays, and see if she'll fire up.  I totally expect her to.  If she does, I'll disconnect the headlight and reconnect the relay wiring to the battery.  See what happens.  If all still good, I'll reconnect the headlight.

Any theories and what may have happened?

Thanks!
  • Vancouver, WA. USA
  • '85 K100 (Red), '96 K1100RS (Graphite), '85 K100RS (Blue, "Project Bike")

Offline Martin

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Re: Added Headlight Relays-- Battery died
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2021, 06:03:54 PM »
It sounds like you might of had a discharged battery, once charged up it should start. Once it's started check the charge rate. Starting Bricks with low battery voltage can lead to the starter relay points welding themselves closed. Tapping the relay will sometimes cause them to unstick, if not open the relay and gently  pry the points open and sand or file the burn marks off.  I just checked the specification sheet on the fan cooled LED H4 globe that I have just fitted to my K75 and it is only supposed to draw 1.5A which shouldn't require the fitting of relays. As my 75 previously has been running higher wattage globes it has had relays fitted.
Regards Martin.
  • North Lakes Queensland Australia
  • 1992 K75s Hybrid, Lefaux, Vespa V twin.

Offline bobvans

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Re: Added Headlight Relays-- Battery died
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2021, 06:38:25 PM »
Thanks, Martin.

The trickle charger continues to do it's thing... it's up to 8.something volts.  The sticking of the starter relay would explain why the battery ended up completely dead and why the trickle charger was saying the battery wasn't properly connected.  If that's the case, the starter should engage the moment I connect the battery, right?  We'll see what happens.
  • Vancouver, WA. USA
  • '85 K100 (Red), '96 K1100RS (Graphite), '85 K100RS (Blue, "Project Bike")

Offline Martin

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Re: Added Headlight Relays-- Battery died
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2021, 07:07:12 PM »
Sometimes they will unstick themselves. When I first got my Brick the relay stuck, the battery overheated and the side of the battery blew out. It stuck a couple of more times until I eventually fitted an isolator switch into the earth lead. Previously to disconnect the battery lead required unbolting the earth lead which was extremely hot and resulted in burnt fingers. http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,8995.msg70926.html#msg70926
Regards Martin.
  • North Lakes Queensland Australia
  • 1992 K75s Hybrid, Lefaux, Vespa V twin.

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Added Headlight Relays-- Battery died
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2021, 12:22:14 AM »
I think that Martin has nailed it.  The low battery voltage welded the start relay contacts and with the voltage so low the starter motor didn't turn, it just sucked the last of the current out of the battery.

I don't know what kind of trickle charger you have, most of them are just battery maintainers and won't charge a dead battery.  Personally, I would connect a regular battery charger to be sure I have a fully charged battery the next time I try to start. 

Also, don't wait until you connect the battery again.  Pull the start relay out and make absolutely sure that the contacts are not welded and the burn marks are polished so full current can go to the starter motor.  If you don't have it get some 600 grit wet or dry paper to polish them.

The easiest way to get to the relay is to remove the clip that hold the seat support and tilt the seat all the way open.  Then remove the clips that hold the tank and lift the rear end of it.  Stick a block of wood under the tank to hold it up.  With the tank connector disconnected you should be able to lift the rear of the tank about 5 inches which should be enough to remove the relay box cover and get to the starter relay.

Once it's out, carefully pry the cover off so you can get to the insides.  Clean the contacts and put everything back together.  It's not that bad of a job.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline bobvans

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Re: Added Headlight Relays-- Battery died
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2021, 01:33:33 AM »
I think that Martin has nailed it.  The low battery voltage welded the start relay contacts and with the voltage so low the starter motor didn't turn, it just sucked the last of the current out of the battery.

I don't know what kind of trickle charger you have, most of them are just battery maintainers and won't charge a dead battery.  Personally, I would connect a regular battery charger to be sure I have a fully charged battery the next time I try to start. 

Also, don't wait until you connect the battery again.  Pull the start relay out and make absolutely sure that the contacts are not welded and the burn marks are polished so full current can go to the starter motor.  If you don't have it get some 600 grit wet or dry paper to polish them.

The easiest way to get to the relay is to remove the clip that hold the seat support and tilt the seat all the way open.  Then remove the clips that hold the tank and lift the rear end of it.  Stick a block of wood under the tank to hold it up.  With the tank connector disconnected you should be able to lift the rear of the tank about 5 inches which should be enough to remove the relay box cover and get to the starter relay.

Once it's out, carefully pry the cover off so you can get to the insides.  Clean the contacts and put everything back together.  It's not that bad of a job.

Thanks!  I was reading about your experience earlier today.

I had the battery on the trickle charger until now (probably at least 10 hours) and it's still sitting at a little over 8V.  I was down below 1V so managed to charge it a bit but it hasn't changed in over 6 hours.  I have a couple of new trickle chargers so will see if one of those works better.  Could be like the Mighty Gryphon said, the trickle charger isn't suited for the job.  I'll see where it's at in the morning.

Thanks for the inputs Guys!!
  • Vancouver, WA. USA
  • '85 K100 (Red), '96 K1100RS (Graphite), '85 K100RS (Blue, "Project Bike")

Offline bobvans

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Re: Added Headlight Relays-- Battery died
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2021, 01:40:29 AM »
Thanks!  I was reading about your experience earlier today.

I had the battery on the trickle charger until now (probably at least 10 hours) and it's still sitting at a little over 8V.  I was down below 1V so managed to charge it a bit but it hasn't changed in over 6 hours.  I have a couple of new trickle chargers so will see if one of those works better.  Could be like the Mighty Gryphon said, the trickle charger isn't suited for the job.  I'll see where it's at in the morning.

Thanks for the inputs Guys!!

That's a great suggestion... I'll be sure to check out the starter relay in the morning.
  • Vancouver, WA. USA
  • '85 K100 (Red), '96 K1100RS (Graphite), '85 K100RS (Blue, "Project Bike")

Offline bobvans

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Re: Added Headlight Relays-- Battery died
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2021, 01:52:15 AM »
I attached one of my newer BMW Advanced Battery Chargers to the battery, using the previous set of detachable clips and noticed the amber light on the charger flashing... indicating an improper connection.  I opened the fuse holder and noticed the fuse had blown.  No wonder there was no improvement in over 6 hours.  Replaced the fuse and noticed the voltage starting to climb again.  Quite a bit faster than with the older trickle charger.  I'm hoping this one will get the battery back to a full (or close to full) charge.
  • Vancouver, WA. USA
  • '85 K100 (Red), '96 K1100RS (Graphite), '85 K100RS (Blue, "Project Bike")

Offline bobvans

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Re: Added Headlight Relays-- Battery died
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2021, 04:06:43 AM »
Well it would charge to a little over 9 volts and then slows way down.  Eventually the charger starts flashing green and red and stops charging.  If I disconnect the charger, the voltage drops back down to 8.6 volts or so.  So the battery isn't charging any more.  I'll take it in to get tested before buying an actual charger.
  • Vancouver, WA. USA
  • '85 K100 (Red), '96 K1100RS (Graphite), '85 K100RS (Blue, "Project Bike")

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Added Headlight Relays-- Battery died
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2021, 09:10:52 AM »
Well it would charge to a little over 9 volts and then slows way down.  Eventually the charger starts flashing green and red and stops charging.  If I disconnect the charger, the voltage drops back down to 8.6 volts or so.  So the battery isn't charging any more.  I'll take it in to get tested before buying an actual charger.

It looks to me like your battery has 2 bad cells.  How old is it?
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"
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Offline Laitch

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Re: Added Headlight Relays-- Battery died
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2021, 11:22:29 AM »
What type of battery is it—lead acid, AGM, Li-Fe, Li-ion or something else?
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.
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Offline bobvans

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Re: Added Headlight Relays-- Battery died
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2021, 10:29:29 PM »
It's an AGM.  Looks like it's not that old... 2016 maybe.

I had it tested today and the kid at Autozone said it was bad.  I can't say my confidence in his ability to run the tester is high but I've got a new one on order... should be here tomorrow.

I didn't get a chance to pull the relay yet.  Had too much other stuff going on.  I'll probably go out to the garage and tinker with it now.

Thanks for everyone's inputs!

  • Vancouver, WA. USA
  • '85 K100 (Red), '96 K1100RS (Graphite), '85 K100RS (Blue, "Project Bike")

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Added Headlight Relays-- Battery died
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2021, 11:07:38 PM »
2016 is old enough to have been abused at some point.  I've seen batteries that weren't even a year old that weren't charged properly and allowed to sit in a partially charged state that lost their ability to accept and hold a charge.  It's very likely that your battery is as dead as a parrot.  It's good that you are getting a new one.

If you are going to be troubleshooting a balky engine, you might want to get a higher output charger.  A trickle charger isn't really intended to recharge a discharged battery.  I would look for something with an output of at least 2 amps.

Make sure you have serviced the start relay before connecting the new battery.  If the contacts are welded the starter will run as soon as you connect the new battery.  You won't even have to turn the ignition on.  On the other hand, if the contacts are not welded, they might still be burnt and causing enough resistance that the starter will have a hard time spinning the engine.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"
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Offline bobvans

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Re: Added Headlight Relays-- Battery died
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2021, 04:56:26 PM »
I managed to pull the starter relay.  A few small little challenges... dropping a screw into the relay box and then dropping a screw down into the side fairing.  Actually I think it was the same screw.  Luckily the screw driver was magnitized so was able to retrieve the screw from the relay box but then dropped it into/behind the fairings.  Should be able to rattle it free and have it drop into the belly pan if it isn't in there already.

Got the cover off the relay.  For those who don't know... the cover is held on by retaining features molded into the cover.  Two on each of the long sides and one on each of the short sides.  Just to add... I inserted a flat head screw driver down into the edge of the relay, rotated, and pushed in a push pin to keep two of the side retaining features from holding the relay body.  Then did the insert and twist of the screw driver while pulling on the lug closest to the end to get that half of the relay body freed up.  Then it was just a matter of working the others lose.


* Starter Relay.jpeg (32.15 kB . 768x576 - viewed 287 times)

The contacts didn't look completely fused but close.  Sanded them clean.


* Dirty Contacts.jpeg (34.18 kB . 768x575 - viewed 270 times)


* Clean Contacts.jpeg (45.81 kB . 768x576 - viewed 332 times)
  • Vancouver, WA. USA
  • '85 K100 (Red), '96 K1100RS (Graphite), '85 K100RS (Blue, "Project Bike")

Offline bobvans

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Re: Added Headlight Relays-- Battery died
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2021, 09:29:23 PM »
Somehow I managed a duplicate post.  I was trying to fix a spelling error and must have quoted instead of modifying.
  • Vancouver, WA. USA
  • '85 K100 (Red), '96 K1100RS (Graphite), '85 K100RS (Blue, "Project Bike")

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