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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => Project Classic Motobricks => Topic started by: Supershooter on December 13, 2016, 08:34:33 PM
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The bike was purchased from a couple who inherited it from a brother who passed too soon. The bike sat for an unknown amount of time and the previous owner started the process to get it running but figured out it was going to be more than he wanted to tackle.
-Purchased mid November
- online research and YouTube video learning
-Cyber Monday ordered a set of filters and oil from Beemer bone yard
-Dec 11 evaluated tank, some debris but other wise in good shape
-Dec 13 checked air filter loos new, spark plugs wet
Until next time...
Supershooter
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Are the plugs wet from an attempt to start it? The air filter looks new?
If you have been cranking for any length of time I hope you treat the battery to some charging when you're done.
Otherwise, it looks like you are doing nicely. Keep us posted and don't hesitate to ask questions. It's looking a bit slow around here lately and the brain trust needs some stimulation.
P.S. are you going to do something about that yellow spark plug cover plate?
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How many miles on the bike?
Have you checked the date code on the tires? That could give you a clue about how long it's been sitting - and how soon you should buy new tires.
Did you get the luggage and other body panels with the bike?
The bike can be improved quickly with some black spray paint on that plug cover. That's one of those things that probably "seemed like a good idea at the time..."
PS - I enjoyed your other brief thread about the gas tank. So glad you didn't use a vacuum cleaner... :yow
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The previous owner unsuccessfully tried to start the bike in his quest to make a runner out of it. I think he, may have also done some other maintenance before I picked it up, I need to call them back and get a list of what he did for sure, he told me he thought that the fuel pump was the next thing to check on the list when he quit.
The tires look good, the bike has 35,000 miles on it, the local dealer installed a radio and cassette player but mounted it in most perplexing location. I don't understand why would have thought it was a good placement.
I'd like the spark plug cover to be black, too.
Supershooter
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The previous owner unsuccessfully tried to start the bike in his quest to make a runner out of it.
I think starting the bike is really the only way to make a runner out of it. :hehehe
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I think starting the bike is really the only way to make a runner out of it. :hehehe
In this case not everything that needed to be had been done to make it a runner, since it wouldn't start..
The proverbial cart was in front of the horse :bmwsmile
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Update:
After noticing the air filter looked new I called the previous owner and he shared some valuable information.
In his attempt to make it a runner again, he and his mechanic friend, changed the air filter, engine oil and filter, cleaned the tank the best he could, added new gas and changed the ignition, removed the lock on the gas tank, due to no keys.
He said the BMW ignition had a 4 position switch and they replaced it with a two position switch due to cost. After that they attempted to start the bike, but it wouldn't start, he said the starter engaged, but it wouldn't fire. He also said they didn't think they could hear the fuel pump run. At this point they quit, and I purchased the bike.
I pulled the plugs last week and they look wet to me, see above pic.
At this point I'm going to pull the fuel pump, and see if it runs... The positive and negative posts are corroded bad, i might have to replace the leads to the pump too.
I'd sure take some advice on where to go from here.
Supershooter
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Based on your statements, I am suspicious of two things:
Changed ignition. What does that mean? New coils, new wires, what?
The two-position ignition switch. If the switch is supposed to have 4 positions, something may be wrong.
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I'd sure take some advice on where to go from here.
Follow this flow chart. (http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/K100/download/bike-wont-start1.htm) To increase your understanding of how these bikes operate, read all the information that is incorporated into document along with the flow chart. Proceed in an orderly way. Don't make assumptions.
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I should clarify' new key switch not ignition.
The flow chart looks to be a great resource, Thanks
Supershooter
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Fuel pump and fuel filter look bad, and wouldn't run when I bumped it with 12V. Where's e best place to buy one?/ cheapest?
Supershooter
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NOT BMW Dealer for the pump, I got violated :hehehe there before I found this (http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/category-s/788.htm)... These people are good to work with.
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I haven't tried one of these myself but others on the forum have
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00T5MKO6Y/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_-2bsybJRD823C (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00T5MKO6Y/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_-2bsybJRD823C)
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I found an exact pump replacement on amazon for $40. After I purchased mine the price went up to $60 but still one of the cheapest for a drop-in
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Fuel pump and fuel filter look bad, and wouldn't run when I bumped it with 12V. Where's e best place to buy one?/ cheapest?
Keep in mind you need more than just the pump; you need the vibration damper and support. You should get another pickup sock or screen, too, depend on the pump width. They don't necessarily come as one unit.
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Thanks for the help guys! I ordered a fuel pump, vibration dampener, screen and a handsiphon pump off of Amazon, with my wife's month long Amazon Prime promo, everything should be here by New Years and maybe Christmas! ($150 shipped) Maybe I'll be able to get it back together yet this year!
Supershooter
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The tank is clean,and the fuel pump replaced, so is the next step reassembly and try to start it? Or is there more cleaning and inspecting that needs to be done?
Supershooter
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Or is there more cleaning and inspecting that needs to be done?
The spark plugs should be checked or replaced. The valve clearances should be checked so they can be eliminated that as a possible cause of trouble starting. The throttle bodies should then be balanced. The bike can be started now but those tasks need to be completed regardless.
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Good news! I have new plugs and a feeler gauge so, all I'll need to figure out is how to balamce the throttle bodies.
After having so much junk in the tank, should I be concerned about the fuel rail or injectors before trying to start it for the "first time"
Supershooter
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You will need a set of 4 vacuum gauges, or make a set using clear tubing and transmission fluid as per Gryph. Do not under any circumstances touch the throttle body screws with the blue paint.
Regards Martin.
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all I'll need to figure out is how to balamce the throttle bodies.
After having so much junk in the tank, should I be concerned about the fuel rail or injectors before trying to start it for the "first time"
Junk in the tank means junk everywhere else. Clean up now and chances for success are greater. :yes
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I had just typed a nice write up with a photo of my $10 balancer rig, but the f-ing site nuked the whole thing cause the photo was too big. After spending the last half hour trying unsuccessfully to resize the frigging photo I'll be damned if I'm going to rewrite the whole post again.
Do a search for "throttle body balancer" and you should find it in another thread.
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Do a search for "throttle body balancer" and you should find it in another thread.
Fergawdsake, look at this thread (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,364.0.html), Sharpie. Plenty of technique there.
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Laitch, I followed the link and it recommended starting the bike and get it up to operating temp before syncing the throttle bodies... So does the bike need to run to sync the throttle bodies?
Supershooter
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Throttle sync is the last thing you do before putting the bike on the road. You need to run the engine at idle for at least 10 minutes to warm everything before you start.
The first thing you need to do is get it to start. You have cleaned out the tank and changed the filter in the tank. The pump runs. With luck, the only crap in the rail and the injectors will be varnished fuel. If it's not too bad, a bottle of Techron fuel system cleaner in the tank should get things going, but it might take a week or more of soaking after the first attempt to start. Then it could take a couple tanks of fuel and Techron to get the engine running smoothly. That's when you can finally do a throttle sync. Once you have it rideable it may take a couple thousand miles to get the full performance from the engine.
Of course if it's really bad, you may have to pull the injectors and clean them with an aerosol can of cleaner and a 9v battery.
Note: before you attempt to start the engine, make sure you have a charger for the battery. After any session trying to start you need to immediately recharge the battery for the next session unless you can get the engine to run for at least 15 minutes. Even then I wouldput the charger on the battery just to insure a good charge for the next try.
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Good news, I have a battery tender and a battery charger to charge the battery before and after attempting to start it. I'll probably get it back together this week and maybe be ready to fire it up Saturday some time.
Supershooter
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The list hopefully getting shorter, spark plugs have been replaced, the tank is reassembled and ready for fuel. I haven't decided if I'm going to add fuel,and try and start it or check value clearance. The spark plugs I removed all looked the same, which was a good thing IMO. The gap ranged from .070 to .080 on the plugs I removed, whereas the gap should have been .060 to .070. The weekend is coming, so more wrenching to come.
Supershooter
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I was able to check valve clearances this weekend, the exhaust valve on the third cylinder from the front had an exhaust valve that was a little more snug than I had hoped. I was able to get the feeler gauge in, but it was tight.
I removed the new spark plugs to apply some anti sieze, and noticed the new plugs had oil on the threads... Is this a problem? I hadn't even tried to start the bike yet. I wondering where the oil is coming from...I read the repair manual and it suggests it may be loose rings or valve seat issues..thoughts?
Supershooter
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Finally back in the shop, working on the Brick. I was able to install the battery, add some gas, try to start it. Upon hitting the starter button fuel started spraying out of fuel line at the end of the fuel rail and leaked out of the line from the tank to the fuel rail. Tightened them up, choked the bike, but now fire... The mystery continues
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OK, you have the starter and fuel pump working. Next is to find out if you have fuel and spark in the cylinder.
Easiest thing to do is put a clean, dry plug in and crank the engine a bit. Then pull the plug and take a look at it. Is it wet? Then stick the plug into the plug wire connector and crank the engine again. Did you see a nice blue spark?
One other thing. Do your new spark plugs have a big terminal for the connector or do they have a threaded stud? The threaded stud won't work with the stock plug wires with the big metal caps. If you bought NGK plugs, I know that they don't have the correct terminal.
Last, have you you cleaned the injectors or checked how the work? Have you put any Techron in the tank? If the bike's 35,000 miles is accurate, it is possible that is has been idle for a fairly long time. Have you checked the tire dates? In any event, I would expect that you will need to pull the injectors and run some injector cleaner through them. There are good videos on YouTube that show how to do it. All it takes is a spray can of cleaner, some tubing, and a 9v battery with a couple alligator test leads.
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I was able to check valve clearances this weekend, the exhaust valve on the third cylinder from the front had an exhaust valve that was a little more snug than I had hoped. I was able to get the feeler gauge in, but it was tight.
A feeler gauge that needs some force behind it to get it inserted indicates a tight valve setting if your gauge was on the upper end of the range. Exhaust valves should be set on the looser end of their range.
Did you check the gaps on your new plugs? Did you check that they were connected to the correct coil?
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A feeler gauge that needs some force behind it to get it inserted indicates a tight valve setting if your gauge was on the upper end of the range. Exhaust valves should be set on the looser end of their range.
Did you check the gaps on your new plugs? Did you check that they were connected to the correct coil?
I rechecked exhaust valve 3 a second time before reassembly and was more comfortable with the measurement the second time.
I did measure the gap on the new plugs before installation and I checked the gap on the old plugs after extraction. I didn't check to see if the wires were connected to the correct cylinder but I changed the plugs one at a time not to mix up which wire went to which cylinder.
Our basement remodel project took my extra time fir the Brick this weekend,,. Hopefully I can get back to it next weekend if not before.
Supershooter
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I didn't check to see if the wires were connected to the correct cylinder but I changed the plugs one at a time not to mix up which wire went to which cylinder.
I shouldn't need to point out to you that this is a non-runner, but I will anyway because that's what you've named it. They could have been misplaced to begin with.
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+1 on Laitch's comment. There have been several owners here who have mixed up the wires.
If you look at the coils closely you should see that they are marked as to which cylinders they are for. The OEM wires are also marked as to part number and which cylinder they are for.
Some of the wires are folded back, and quite a bit longer than the wires for cylinders further away from the coils. It's easy to get confused.
I doubt that the wires are the reason for non start. Normally the engine will start, but it only runs on two cylinders, with the other two either not firing or misfiring badly.
BTW, I don't want to be a nag, but have you checked the new spark plug terminals? Have you checked for gas on the tip of the plug and spark?
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Finally got an hour to trouble shoot my brick.
I found the spark plugs had a good blue spark when I pulled them out and hit the starter button. They appeared dry after a fair amount of cranking without starting.
I removed the fuel rail and injectors, they were dry on the bottom end, the rail had chunks of junk in it preventing fuel from getting to the injectors.
Any suggestions on cleaning the fuel rail or should it be replaced. Any other additional comments would be appreciated.
Supershooter
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Soaking in vinegar or acetone for a couple of weeks might clean it up.
Regards Martin.
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OK, now we're getting somewhere.
Take the fuel line from the pump that goes to the rail and put it into a bottle. A 2 liter soda bottle is good. Turn the ignition on and hit the starter. Do you get a nice strong flow of gas? Is there a bunch of stuff in the gas?
+1 on soaking the rail in vinegar for a couple days. Then blow it out with compressed air.
While the rail is soaking, you might want to clean the injectors. YouTube has a number of good videos showing how to do it. Basically, you get a can of spray injector cleaner, some tubing that will connect the spray can to the top of the injector and a 9v battery with some alligator clip leads to power the injector open.
There are filters in the top of the injectors that you might want to replace. You can get them at an auto parts store for a couple bucks apiece. Pull the old filters out by screwing a sheet metal screw into the filter and pulling it out with a pair of pliers.
Good luck. It looks like you're getting close.
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I used Muratic Acid and water to clean my tank, it worked very well and fast. Would there be any issues using the same solution to flush the fuel rail?
I used a multimeter to check continuity and they were all 15.7-15.8.
Supershooter
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I used Muratic Acid and water to clean my tank, it worked very well and fast. Would there be any issues using the same solution to flush the fuel rail?
I would be hesitant to use HCl on steel. I think the rail is steel. I used acetone on my rail with good results...If in doubt regarding amount of corrosion, I would buy a different rail (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-BMW-K100-Fuel-Rail-/192089194546?hash=item2cb9688032:g:mbAAAOSwal5YDNjh&vxp=mtr). Gryphon has it right as well. If your rail is that bad, injectors will need attention as well.
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I would be hesitant to use HCl on steel.
Why not use hydrofluoric acid on it and just start over? :yes
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IMHO, I would avoid using hydrofluoric acid... :hehehe and just stick with the vinegar or acetone :dunno2: Hydrofluoric acid is a solution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solution) of hydrogen fluoride (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fluoride) (HF) in water (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water). It is a precursor to almost all fluorine compounds, including pharmaceuticals such as fluoxetine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoxetine) (Prozac), diverse materials such as PTFE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene) (Teflon), and elemental fluorine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorine) itself. It is a colourless solution that is highly corrosive, capable of dissolving many materials, especially oxides (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxide). Its ability to dissolve glass has been known since the 17th century, even before Carl Wilhelm Scheele (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Wilhelm_Scheele) prepared it in large quantities in 1771.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid#cite_note-2) Because of its high reactivity toward glass and moderate reactivity toward many metals, hydrofluoric acid is usually stored in plastic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic) containers (although PTFE is slightly permeable to it).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid#cite_note-Ullmann-3)
Hydrogen fluoride gas is an acute poison that may immediately and permanently damage lungs and the corneas of the eyes. Aqueous (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqueous) hydrofluoric acid is a contact-poison with the potential for deep, initially painless burns and ensuing tissue death. By interfering with body calcium metabolism, the concentrated acid may also cause systemic toxicity and eventual cardiac arrest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_arrest) and fatality, after contact with as little as 160 cm2 (25 square inches) of skin.
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IMHO, I would avoid using hydrofluoric acid... :hehehe and just stick with the vinegar or acetone :dunno2: Hydrofluoric acid is a solution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solution) of hydrogen fluoride (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fluoride) (HF) in water (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water). It is a precursor to almost all fluorine compounds, including pharmaceuticals such as fluoxetine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoxetine) (Prozac), diverse materials such as PTFE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene) (Teflon), and elemental fluorine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorine) itself. It is a colourless solution that is highly corrosive, capable of dissolving many materials, especially oxides (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxide). Its ability to dissolve glass has been known since the 17th century, even before Carl Wilhelm Scheele (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Wilhelm_Scheele) prepared it in large quantities in 1771.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid#cite_note-2) Because of its high reactivity toward glass and moderate reactivity toward many metals, hydrofluoric acid is usually stored in plastic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic) containers (although PTFE is slightly permeable to it).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid#cite_note-Ullmann-3)
Hydrogen fluoride gas is an acute poison that may immediately and permanently damage lungs and the corneas of the eyes. Aqueous (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqueous) hydrofluoric acid is a contact-poison with the potential for deep, initially painless burns and ensuing tissue death. By interfering with body calcium metabolism, the concentrated acid may also cause systemic toxicity and eventual cardiac arrest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_arrest) and fatality, after contact with as little as 160 cm2 (25 square inches) of skin.
That's what I meant by "start over," Jack.
:giggles
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Who knew so many scientist frequented the brick page😉
I've attempted to flush the injectors with carb and injector cleaner and a 9V battery with no success, apparently the crap is deep into them also. Any tips or tricks to get them to function or should they be replaced? I didn't have any succes removing the screens, any tips for removing them? I don't want to wreck any thing along the way if I can help it.
Supershooter
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To remove the screens use a self taping screw or a self drilling metal screw of the appropriate size. Screw in the fastener and pull out by attaching a pair of vice grips. You will have to buy another set of filter screens.
Regards Martin.
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I've attempted to flush the injectors with carb and injector cleaner and a 9V battery with no success, apparently the crap is deep into them also.
If at first you don't succeed,
Try and try again.
Then send them to Mr. Injector for assessment and possible cleaning.
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Did you try pulling the filter screens with a sheet metal screw? Get that screen out and get some cleaner in them and let it soak. You might want to consider soaking the injectors for a day or two in a covered pan filled with Techron. Every now and then pull them out and hit them with a couple shots of 9v.
Sometimes you need to run the cleaner backwards through the injector.
Did you try to run some fuel into a bottle as I suggested in an earlier post?
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I did try a sheet metal screw, but was cautious not wreck the injector with the screw so I didn't get aggressive enough to get it, I was concerned about how deep I wanted to get into the injector so that I wouldn't wreck other internal parts.
I have them soaking in carb cleaner and will head back to the shop after lunch and work at it some more.
Supershooter
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With the correct size screw you should be able to pull them out, soaking will help.
Regards Martin.
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How does the gas coming out of the fuel pump look?
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First and foremost, Thank you, for all,the help so far, this project I'd running a lot smoother than ever anticipated because of all,of you guys. Thanks
The fuel coming out of the pump/ tank looks good.
Mr Injector, has me concerned that if I send him my injectors and they are bad, it cost me $75 to throw them away and start over.
Otherewise, the injectors are soaking in my shop. I did get part of a screen out, I didn't go as I had hoped. I did hit them with 9V this afternoon again and got noting, so I checked my battery and it checked out fine.
The fuel rail is clean and ready to go again.
We'll see how the injectors turn out, I'm feeling good about the progress so far. I plan to visit the local auto parts store tomorrow to ask about local injector cleaning.
Supershooter
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Good to hear the pump and fuel lines are ok.
Keep hitting the injectors with the 9v. Even if you don't get any flow you are bumping the pintle and the crap built up around it. With any luck you will eventually break it free. As long as you just momentarily connect the power, there is no reason that you couldn't use 12v. All you are looking for right now is an electrical "tap" on the pintle. There is no reason to leave the power on.
Keep an eye on eBay. There are a number of usable injectors from running bikes available for very reasonable prices there. If you can't get yours to work this is a good source for replacements.
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Current eBay listing for injectors and fuel rail from running engine:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/86-BMW-K-100-K100-gas-fuel-injectors-injector-nozzles-and-line-rail-bar-/401266444356?hash=item5d6d580844:g:LekAAOSwNnRYi3~Q&vxp=mtr
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If your local injector guy is competent, he can rework them. Luckily here in the midwest USA, we have a lot of competent injection shops (diesel gearheads). This is not rocket science :bmwsmile . You may have to wait for him to order kits. My oddball bosch injectors (tractor) took 2 weeks to get the appropriate kit.
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This is an option as well (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1983-92-BMW-K100-K100RS-K100RT-K100LT-Fuel-Injectors-Best-Upgrade-4-Hole-Spray-/201790452986?hash=item2efba5f4fa:g:Cr8AAOxycmBS6PL9&vxp=mtr). I have done this to my bike and am pleased so far (it's fast enough to scare me :hehehe ...but then again, I scare easily :hehehe .
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Jack, other than new injectors did you have to do anything else to make it function correctly? I love speed and power. My other Bagger is a HD that makes a 100 hp and 110 tq.
Supershooter
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did you have to do anything else to make it function correctly? I love speed and power.
I enjoy speed and power as well :bmwsmile . Since I started with an R60/5, the K has abundant amounts of both :hehehe . All you need to do is to restore the bike to it's original functionality! The injectors were the only "performance" upgrade I did. If you desire more power, you could do this (https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/bmwturbos.htm#k100)...
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I enjoy speed and power as well :bmwsmile .
I enjoy the breeze and the Gees. :riding:
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Moonlight walks and puppies.
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Fiber and naps...
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Cricket and beer.
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Jack the RB racing site was pretty interesting although I didn't find any k100 parts on the price list, which is fine, because I don't need a race bike.
I did bump the injectors with 9V after work, and added some more carb/ injector cleaner.
Dustin
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I contacted Mr Injector, I'm leaning towards sending him my injectors to get them analyzed and flowing correct if they are able.
Thanks for the Mr injector tip!
Supershooter
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Mr. Injector will make them like new if they're salvageable. :2thumbup:
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Dustin, You are welcome to have my old injectors if you need them (24,000 mi and sat with gas in tank for 12+ years :bmwsmile )...I am not going back! I guess that I also put Magnecor wires on. Once you get it running, you can do fun things like fan over-ride, aux lights, leds, moly in FD/trn, wire upgrades (http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/Battery-Cable-Kit-BMW-K-BCK-5771317-p/bck-5771317.htm) to protect the starter, etc!!
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Mr Injector is the man!
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I'm impatiently waiting for my injectors to get sent back. As I continue to think about this project, I wonder if the fuel pressure regulator could be corroded too? If it is van it be serviced?
Supershooter
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Buy new off Amazon. Much cheaper than other sources. I have a post on here somewhere.
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Can it be serviced or does it just get replaced?
Supershooter
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I guess you could try cleaning. I just replaced figuring 20 plus years was enough
What do the rest think?
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Can it be serviced or does it just get replaced?
If you have replaced the fuel lines and run clean fuel, you'll find out how well it works once you've reassembled and started the engine. Its performance can also be measured with a gauge.
It's a sealed unit so repair is only for the adventuresome, and then only if they can find needed parts. Replace it if you can't tolerate uncertainty.
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+1 on Laitch's advice.
The regulator is nothing more than a can with a spring and a diaphragm in it. Super simple, but impossible to service. If you suspect it is bad and are in there already, change it now because it will be a royal pain in the butt to diagnose and replace after everything is put back together.
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Dustin,
The pressure regulator was about the only part I did not replace on my fuel system! Mine has been working appropriately during the last year...
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Jack, I'm going cross my fingers and hope it doesn't need to be replaced at this point.
On a different topic, Bill from Mr injector, emailed me to say that my injectors were stuck, but he was able to get them functioning again. I was excited to get that email! I should have more to do in the shop by next weekend!
Supershooter
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:2thumbup:
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I couldn't take it anymore, while I waited for the injectors to get back, I torn into the rear end and checked and greased the splines.
Injectors should be here any day.
Supershooter
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:clap: Splines are a critical maintenance item. Good that you did them.
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greetings...
what grease did you use on those splines...
j o
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A Moly formula from the local auto parts store.
Supershooter
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Injectors can in the mail today, had to stay home with my son who,was under the weather, so I was able to sneak out to the shop, and install the injectors.
After assembly I hit the starter button and it eventually fired up and ran!
Low rpm no smoke, 3k white cloud!
After the cloud cleared mostly, the bike started right up!
Thanks to all those who've helped get me this far!
How important is the insulation on the fuel rail that I removed when I cleaned it?
Supershooter
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Been gone on mine for years.
What do the rest of you say?
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There is supposed to be insulation on the rail?!? :mbird
None of my bikes even look like they ever had it.
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None on mine...was strictly factory, PO was fanatic--right up until he parked it for 15 years :musicboohoo:
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I bought mine new do it had it until I did a rebuild. It was stiff, brittle and fell apart. No replacement available. And to be honest if needed I figured I could make one with that aluminum adhesive foil covered foam.
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Madian voyage, down to the corner and back, no speedo...Progress
Supershooter
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http://www.moviewavs.com/0053148414/MP3S/Movies/Young_Frankenstein/alive.mp3
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Great job! Congratulations. I hope you and your reborn brick ride for many happy miles together :riding:
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TMG - YF has to be my favourite ever comedy - great clip - thanks :hehehe
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Long time hiatus is over, new Tourmaster tires have been mounted, front fork seals have been replaced, brake fluid flushed and brakes bled. Finally ready for a trip to the local gas station today.
After 4 miles a fuel line springs a leak and sprayed fuel all over the left side of the bike along with my pants from the knee down and soaked by boot with gas.
I knew i should have replaced them before.
Supershooter
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After a trip to the gas station 17 miles from home, the brick has had more issues surface. The idle is wacky, I think due in part to a couple of vacuum hose that were brittle and cracked. So I be replacing them, any recommendations on where to buy them?
The odometer and speedometer doesn't work so I torn it apart and it has corrosion inside. Fix or replace?
Supershooter
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Other than radiator hoses I just buy generic hose by the meter, from a local auto supply store. Molded ones can be imitated with the addition of stainless steel springs either internally or externally depending on their diameter. You might be able clean the circuit board gently with electrical contact cleaner and cotton buds. Resident electrical guru's might have more information on whether or not this can be achieved. :dunno
Regards Martin.
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$0.69 for one ft of vac hose fixed the issue.
The speedo, has me thinking I'm might just put it back together and use my gps.
Supershooter
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I'd try cleaning you've got nothing to loose. As well as the conductive glue mentioned on the other post, there used to be conductive paint that was used to fix rear window demisters. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Xtreme-Heated-Rear-Window-Screen-Demister-Element-Repair-Kit-Conductive-Paint-/232340844532?
Regards Martin
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After replacing fuel lines and vacuum hose I took the bike out and it didn't run as well as I had hoped after the line changes. I started out and in 2 miles I had fuel leaking again, back home tighten a loose clamp, turn around and head out again. Got 6 miles from home and the fuel return line bursts open and sprays has all over my leg and boot. Rode home quick before it ran out of gas. The bike seemed to run better after the fuel line burst for some reason.
Why do I keep bursting the fuel return line?
Supershooter
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Use the correct fuel injection clamp not the worm drive type and tighten. Have you got the hose pushed on far enough? Have you used the correct size hose?
Regards Martin.
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After replacing fuel lines and vacuum hose I took the bike out and it didn't run as well as I had hoped after the line changes. I started out and in 2 miles I had fuel leaking again, back home tighten a loose clamp, turn around and head out again. Got 6 miles from home and the fuel return line bursts open and sprays has all over my leg and boot.
Why do I keep bursting the fuel return line?
Like Martin has indicated, maybe your clamps aren't clamping but it also seems like your pressure regulator might might be supplying too much pressure.
Before this particular event occurred, had you replaced all the fuel lines including the latest burster?
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Make sure the return line is clear inside the tank. Does the "note" of the fuel pump change / oscillate?
Mine was blocked and blew the line off as well, so I over-tightened the clamp and got it to stay, but could hear my fuel pump surging. I pushed a small flexible wire / nylon brush up the nipple as far as I could into the tank and reattached the line. Fired it up and the surge changed to a low growl for a sec or 2, then - WHOOSH! I could tell the line had cleared, and the fuel pump went to its normal constant hum.
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Tank is off again and the nipple where the return line attaches appears to be clean. What I'm not sure about is what is inside the tank beyond the nipple? I can stick a screw up into the tank and it hits something hard, and when I look into the tank it looks like a cover to defuse fuel as it returns but I can't tell for sure. Any help?
I called the dealer and the guy whose been helping me has been great, but today in the middle of our conversation he said he had to go because it was after quitting time and had to get off the clock. Not a vote of confidence for customer service.
Supershooter
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Tank is off again and the nipple where the return line attaches appears to be clean. What I'm not sure about is what is inside the tank beyond the nipple? I can stick a screw up into the tank and it hits something hard, and when I look into the tank it looks like a cover to defuse fuel as it returns but I can't tell for sure. Any help?
Photos of the alleged offending nipple in the context of its location on the tank, and of what you're looking at in the tank would help.
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I can stick a screw up into the tank and it hits something hard, and when I look into the tank it looks like a cover to defuse fuel as it returns but I can't tell for sure. Any help?
Supershooter
Sounds like you have an older style tank, the differences have been recently discussed HERE (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,10105.msg86118.html#msg86118).
Seems the older style used a check valve fitting of sorts for the fuel return. P/N 16 12 1 455 348
Which is probably the obstacle you are encountering.
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This is what it looks like. I have a video, from when I blew compressed air into the tank, if that'll help diagnose the problem.
Supershooter
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It does bubble fairly vapidly when I give it some air.
Supershooter
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Yours is the old style tank. The black "post" about 5 or 6 inches tall is the fuel level sender and is also where the wires to the fuel pump come through. The aluminum button just in front of it is where the fuel return comes in. It is a check valve so fuel doesn't pour out when you remove the return hose. Your check valve must have been partially plugged because the fuel return line should not build up enough pressure to blow out. Unfortunately I don't think that check valve is accessible. With luck. compressed air may have cleared it.
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Frustration has returned, Grrrr!
I was noticing that the battery kept losing charge and was supposed to be "new" when I purchased the bike. So I grabbed the multimeter and started doing some basic checks.
First I charged the battery to a charge of 13.2/13.6 V. Then started the bike and showed a reading of 12.8, while running at idle. I sped the motor to 3k rpm, no increase in V. So I concluded that the alternator isn't charging.
Next I removed and evaluated the fuses and they all looked fine.
I go to fire the bike up again and it won't start.
Now I'm confused. I wiggled the wires going into the tank and they seem to gain and loses contact.
In the process of trying to start the bike it has back fired a few times with an extremely loud bang the first time.
I'm looking for direction again. Thanks in advance.
Supershooter
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I wiggled the wires going into the tank and they seem to gain and loses contact. I'm looking for direction again.
Thanks in advance.
Go in the direction of the wires that seem to have intermittent contact and find out if that is the case. Be certain your battery's transmission case ground connection is clean and tight and that your battery's cable connections are likewise.
I don't accept thanks in advance. :giggles
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I charged the battery with the transmission ground, because it's easy to get at when the battery is in the bike. The bike turns over fast, I'm not concerned about it not being able to start he bike.
The back fires have me more concerned since it won't start. I'm starting to think it might to a fuel issue. I've just filled the tank full for the first time not so long ago. I think I'll syfin the gas back out of the tank so it's easier to handle.
The four wires that run into the tank, what do they control? Is it more than the low fuel lights and fuel pump?
Supershooter
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The four wires that run into the tank, what do they control?
The fuel pump and the fuel gauge. Do you have the float-type gauge?
If the four-pin plug that connects to those wires isn't clean and tight, the pump will operate unpredictably. Open the plug, gently clean the pins with electronic cleaner then be sure the pins are in tight contact with their sockets. It that doesn't help, there might be problems with the power wire at the point where it enters the tank, or inside the tank.
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First, the four wires to the tank are only for the fuel pump and the low fuel indicators. If they are intermittent the pump will not run.
Backfiring is usually from fuel being ignited in the exhaust system. It can be the result of an overly rich mixture being injected and not firing until it gets to the exhaust system where there will be more air available.
You earlier had a problem with high fuel pressure possibly caused by a blocked check valve in the tank. Have you put some air through the return line to see if it is plugged again? As a test, you might try running a long hose from the fuel pressure regulator back to the tank through the filler. That would bypass the check valve. Then try to start the engine. If the check valve is the problem the engine should start and run.
You haven't mentioned whether you have been able to check the fuel pressure in the rail. That may also be something to do.
I didn't go that far back in this thread. What were the conditions inside the tank? Was there a lot of junk in there that could foul up the fuel system?
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If indeed the problem is in the check valve it can be replaced. The part number according to the fiche at MaxBMW is:
16 12 1 455 348 and it costs $8.62 which is almost free in the BMW pricing scheme. It looks like it screws into the bottom of the tank.
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I blew some compressed air through the check value, it seemed to function fine. Nothing came out of the check valve as far as I can see. I can post the video, if You'd like.
The odd part is that the bike had been running before I started investigating the charging system.
Then fuel pump is working, I can hear it run after I let off the starter button.
I haven't checked the fuel rail pressure.
Supershooter
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I could be very wrong, but from my experience, backfiring can indicate an overly rich mixture. You seem to have had pressure problems in the past possibly caused by the check valve. That is the first thing I would try to definitely eliminate right now. Try the hose through the filler test.
A fuel pressure test may also be warranted.
Have you checked the engine temperature sender?
What do the spark plugs look like? Are they all equally wet with fuel?
Another cause of non-start and backfiring is gross ignition timing error. Have you messed with the Hall Effect Sensors? Plug wires?
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A flaky temperature sensor or sensor connection can cause rough running or even non or hard starting.
Regards Martin.
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is it possable there problem with maf have you tried starting and pushing flap open few mill as could be stuck as mine was when first tried to fire up and had about same issue as yours just a thought
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I'll try and get back to the shop after work sometime this weekend start trying some of the suggestions
Supershooter
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Well the only common theme to working on the this brick, has to be that I continuously end up smelling like gas before I'm done.
I am fairly sure the wiring to the tank is working correct. When I press the starter the pump, runs and after I release the starter button it continues to run for a short time.
I removed the return line and hit the starter and it rapidly pumps gas out of the return line but won't fire up and run. If I try to start the bike too many more times I'll empty the tank.
I'm just stumped, because it when from starting and running to not wanting to start, with an occasional back fire.
It looks like I can rent a fuel pressure test kit from a local auto parts store, how much pressure should this pump make?
Before I started tearing into things today, the bike seems to "run" while the starter was engaged, but wouldn't take off and run.
Any other thoughts?
Supershooter
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Are the spark plugs wet or dry? With the spark plugs removed, earth all the leads and check for spark by fitting a spark plug to each lead one at a time and check for spark. WARNING failure to earth the spark plug leads while checking for spark can cause damage to the computer.
Regards Martin.
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The plugs are wet and black, each plug made spark.
The bike backfires every so often when I give it the ol' come on baby just start.
Supershooter
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Check the temperature sender and connection. A faulty sender or connection will cause an over rich mixture. If it happens while you are out in the boonies you can get them to start. It helps if you have two people but it can be done solo. First remove the fuel pump fuse No 6 Krafftstoppe. remove the spark plugs and allow it to dry out for 15 min. Replace the spark plugs, then start the bike, it should run on the residual fuel left in the cylinder. As the fuel runs out and the engine dies ram home the fuse, the second person is handy here while one does the throttle and start the other does the fuse. it should keep running albeit roughly, with manipulation of the throttle. It will run rough but should be able to be ridden with care. It has happened twice to me until I used Deoxit and dielectric grease on the connection. Due to where the connection is situated it is subjected to a lot of road scum and water. The sender can be tested and the various values are posted.
Regards Martin.
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Update and Full Disclosure:
I did poked my multimeter positive lead into the alternator fitting and the negative lead to the frame, after testing the to see if the bike would charge the battery. Is it possible I damaged something, doing this?
I am back I the saddle actively trying to fix the bike again, hopefully I can get it on the road again before the weather gets too nice. I'll gladly take suggestions and try to figure this out.
At this point I'm planning to check the temp sensor and keep checking things as I go.
Supershooter
Frustration has returned, Grrrr!
I was noticing that the battery kept losing charge and was supposed to be "new" when I purchased the bike. So I grabbed the multimeter and started doing some basic checks.
First I charged the battery to a charge of 13.2/13.6 V. Then started the bike and showed a reading of 12.8, while running at idle. I sped the motor to 3k rpm, no increase in V. So I concluded that the alternator isn't charging.
Next I removed and evaluated the fuses and they all looked fine.
I go to fire the bike up again and it won't start.
Now I'm confused. I wiggled the wires going into the tank and they seem to gain and loses contact.
In the process of trying to start the bike it has back fired a few times with an extremely loud bang.
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The motivation has been tough to come by, but here we go!
I finally took time to check a few things over the weekend.
I tested the EFI, Water Temp between pin 10 and ground- 2.5K ohms @ 20C my reading was 4.07 ohms at 10C (does the key need to be in the on position when testing the water temp?)
Airflow meter Pin 7-5 65 ohms, pins 7-8 320 ohms, Pins 5-8 360 ohms, pin 7-8 214 ohms
At this point, it looks like the temp sensor needs replaced, the Airflow Meter readings looks fine to me, of I'm mistaken please let me know.
I also oredered a new fuel line return fuel valve, to hopefully stop the return fuel line from bursting and spraying fuel on me as I ride.
Any other advice to help get this brick running again is welcome.
Supershooter
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I tested the EFI, Water Temp between pin 10 and ground- 2.5K ohms @ 20C my reading was 4.07 ohms at 10C
Airflow meter Pin 7-5 65 ohms, pins 7-8 320 ohms, Pins 5-8 360 ohms, pin 7-8 214 ohms
Presenting accurate data is important. Was the Water Temp reading 4.07 Ω or 4.07K Ω? 4.07K is close to normal but that test doesn't indicate the sensor works throughout its range. If it were my bike, I'd be compelled to remove the sensor, clean its block grounding, check its wiring and connectors and run the boiling water test with it.
Regarding the air flow thermistor:
Two 7-8 values are recorded. Should the last one actually be for 8-9?
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Laitch,
My haste in posting before work caused error. The last air flow reading was between 8-9 at 214 ohms.
The multimeter I used was a auto read model, so all the readings I'm reporting are as read off the multimeter. The odd reading had me questioning whether or not I was performing the test correctly or if the sensor was faulty or if the sensor needed to be removed and tested.
Hopefully I can get some time to remove and test the sensor this weekend.
Dustin
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Any advice on water temp sensor removal, I don't want to make a rookie mistake.
Supershooter
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There are two ways to do it. 1/ Remove the radiator to get at it. 2/ If you have large hands you might want to do the radiator removal method. Remove the air cleaner and MAF sensor housing. I normally remove the MAF, lifting the tank can help get a screwdriver onto the large inner most hose clamp or I use a 7mm 1/4 drive socket on a thumb wheel drive to undo the clamp. Once the clamp is undone you can swing the MAF out of the way. Remove the lower air cleaner housing two Allen bolts with washers on both sides. Don't loose the washers or forget to replace them tape grease or glue can be used to keep them in place when replacing the housing. Once both housings are out of the way use a small pick to remove the spring clip off the connector and remove the connector. Clean thoroughly around the sensor. If you have everything clean you can do the next step without loosing very much coolant. Using a 19mm socket remove until finger tight, have the new sensor at hand and quickly swap the sensors, make sure you have the seal on the new sensor. If you do it right and quickly you will not loose much coolant. Do not use thread sealant, thread tape on the sensor. The sensor relies on a good earth to work. Clean the plug with DeoxIT before installing on the new sensor. Replace the lower air cleaner housing making sure the washers are aligned. Smear a small amount of rubber grease around the MAF sensor hose and push it on it can take a bit of wrangling. Do up the MAF hose clamp with the 7mm socket and thumb wheel. Refit the air cleaner element. If you weren't quick enough swapping over the sensors you will have to top up the coolant.
Regards Martin.
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There are two ways to do it.
What's the difference between 1/ and 2/, Martin?
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Laitch one involves draining and removing the radiator the second method involves leaving the radiator in place and removing the air cleaner/MAF housing.
Regards Martin.
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I have just done this and found that removing the radiator was the easiest way to go to get to the temp sensor. Once that was done it is pretty simple job, though you will need a 19mm ring spanner to remove the sensor, a socket cannot fit on and an open ended spanner is too wide.
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Laitch one involves draining and removing the radiator the second method involves . . .
So you wrote, but my reading stopped after the first sentence following 2/.
Anyway, Supershooter, do the radiator method, especially if you don't have another sensor as a substitute. The radiator fins could probably use a thorough cleaning. Drain the coolant by first removing the radiator cap then emptying from the lower hose connection.
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A 19mm socket fits fine, on the 75 and the 100 2V, maybe the 4V is different.
Regards Martin.
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On my 4v at least there is an tube connection protruding out of the engine just to the left of the water temp sensor meaning there is not room to get a socket on, I think it has something do with CA emissions?
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I just did a remove and replace sensor last week and that fitting was not evident. The way I went in, all that was required was a 19mm socket an extension bar and a ratchet. :dunno
Regards Martin.
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Must be either a 16v or CA model only thing - just my luck huh?!?!
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Thanks Guys
I was going to go in via air box removal route but the radiator removal makes sense too. I appreciate the advice.
Supershooter
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How do the wires going to the sensor come apart?
Supershooter
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That looks like the water temp sensor.
The connector just pulls off, it does not have the little wire across the top you need to push down like some of the connectors.
If it is a little stuck some gentle persuasion with a small screwdriver where the tabs connect with the sensor may help.
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Open (or remove) the wire clip at the red arrows, so it go clear of the barbs at the green arrows.
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Inge K, does the wire clip spread apart by the red arrows or pull out from the opposition side?
Supershooter
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Spread out from the red arrows. Maintain control of the wire, otherwise they go shooting off into the deepest most inaccessible areas of your garage, never to be found. Needle-nose pliers are your friend.
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Got it apart, Thanks for the help! Now I need to get a deep meteric socket to get the sensor removed.
Supershooter
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Got it apart, Thanks for the help! Now I need to get a deep meteric socket to get the sensor removed.
Supershooter
It is a 19mm nut. I used a ring spanner to get mine off btw
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
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A new 19mm deep socket and a its off.
Bench test showed 4540 ohms at 68-70 F, resistance should be around 2500 at 70 F. I boiled some water, resistance went down to 800. Should have dipped to around 250.
So if I understand correctly my water temp sensor is telling the bike its cooler than it actually is. Hence, the cooling fan did not start and run the last time I ran the bike and it puked antifreeze. But does that explain anything when it comes to not starting?
Dustin
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So if I understand correctly my water temp sensor is telling the bike its cooler than it actually is. . But does that explain anything when it comes to not starting?
Yes, Dustin, it could explain starting trouble. What's the air temperature when you're trying to start this relic?
If the engine is getting excess fuel because the sensor is signalling cooler conditions than actually exist, it will be difficult to start. That's flooding. In post #115 you stated that the plugs were wet and that you had spark. That's one of the signs of flooding and post #116 recommended testing the coolant temperature sensor, and that's why we've all gathered here on this beautiful Sunday. Run the test again. If you get the similar results, replace the sensor.
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Laitch,
I keep the shop where she’s stored between 50-74F. I’ll get a new sensor coming.
Thanks
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I keep the shop where she’s stored between 50-74F.
Luxurious! At least you're relatively warm when your bike disappoints you. :2thumbup:
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If the sensor or the connector is bad the information the FIC gets is the engine is cold so it richens up the mixture. This causes the engine to flood. If you get stuck out on the road there is a way to get it started. Remove the spark plugs and let it air out for fifteen to thirty minutes. Replace the spark plugs and remove the fuel pum fuse number 6 marked krafftsoppe. The next part is better with two people but can be done with one. Start the bike, it should start on the residual fuel left in the combustion chamber as the engine dies ram home the fuse. With a bit of throttle manipulation the bike will run albeit badly. At traffic lights you will have to keep the revs up or it will cut out. TMG suggested unplugging the four pin harness to the pump as an alternative to removing the fuse. Either or what ever you find easiest. There is now a two part DeoxIT ( the second tin puts a gold coating on the pins) which should be used on the connector, a bit of heavy silicone grease around the edge of the connector would help to keep out the water.
Regards Martin.
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Bench test showed 4540 ohms at 68-70 F, resistance should be around 2500 at 70 F. I boiled some water, resistance went down to 800. Should have dipped to around 250.
Did you take your measurement between both spade terminals? Or between one spade terminal and the body of the sender? If the former, that's the wrong technique and your conclusions may be wrong. If the latter, then your diagnosis is correct.
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Removed the fuel return fitting, no wonder the fuel lines kept breaking and spewing gas all over my legs.
Supershooter
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Glad I saw that, I am sure that is something I should be doing. I would guess mine is the same :( Thanks to you I will have to go dig a little deeper sense the parts are still on order. Thanks SS for pointing that part out.
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RBM,
I took the reading with the multimeter touching space terminal in the fitting, but it sounds like I need to test differently. So I need to have one lead on the body of the sensor and the other on a spade? Does it matter which lead touches the body of the sensor or spade, or one spade or the other?
Tim,
Sorry to break the news, the alternative is not pleasant, and the fitting is $8.00.
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Yes, you need to connect one lead of the multimeter to the body of the sensor and the other lead to either one of the spade terminals. Which one doesn't matter. There are two thermistors embedded within the sensor; one lead of each goes to a spade connector and both of the other leads are common and connected to the body. Both thermistors have the same values and same response curves which is why it doesn't matter.
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Upon retesting of the water temp sensor the reading came back at 2170 and 2222 on the spade connectors at room temp, and 269 for both spade connectors when placed in hot water, slightly below boiling. These seem to be inspect, or am I wrong?
Supershooter
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That sounds like it is within spec.
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Reinstalled the sensor, with dexoit, on connections, tested fuses, applied dexoit, dexoit on the fuel tank electrical connection, I’m charging the battery. I replaced the fuel return fitting going into the tank because it was corroded. Should I finish reassemblly and try to start or is there something else I should test?
Supershooter
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Since the water temp sensor tested within spec, what should I check next?
Supershooter
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I did't notice in your trouble shooting if you removed the radiator? I was just wondering if you flushed the system and look at the thermostat as well?
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I did't notice in your trouble shooting if you removed the radiator? I was just wondering if you flushed the system and look at the thermostat as well?
Excellent point! Bricks don't seem to have a lot of reserve capacity in the cooling system. My K100RS16V puked coolant almost everytime I took it out when the temperature was above 80F. Somebody ran well water in the system and plugged it up with a lot of mineral deposits. They also put on a lot of miles driving through bug swarms. The heat melted the brush holders on the fan motor.
Soaking the radiator internals with vinegar a couple times cleaned out the mud and doing the same on the outside dissolved a lot of the bugs in the fins. A couple cycles with radiator flush to get the engine passages cleaned out and the engine runs at the proper temperature regardless of how hot it is. It only rises when stuck in traffic on hot days, and the new Spal fan handles that nicely.
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Tim,
I am stumped on why the bike won’t start, so after getting it to run last Feb, i ran it through most of the summer and now it won’t start. I’ve written about my issues earlier i this thread. So I’m looking for
Why it won’t run. Any help would be much appreciated.
I changed the coolant recently, and drained it before deciding not to r[size=78%]emove the radiator for this temp sensor project. So at this point I’m wonder if reassembly and hitting the starter is my best option or if there are more obvious this to rest. [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Supershooter [/size]
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You need to get back to basics. After failure to start pull spark plugs are they wet or dry.
Regards Martin.
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Because you have it stripped, you might check the vane in the mass airflow sensor and also its electrical connection. Look at the illustration of it in the K100 troubleshooting guide to understand how it works. The vane should move smoothly on its axle. There is also a test for its function in the guide.
This starting trouble is a classic K-bike syndrome on neglected bikes—and occasionally on well-used ones, too. It exercises patience, that's for sure. Regularly, somebody who has tested systems all over the place will eventually find the problem arose from a simple disconnection or failed hose that was overlooked. There is an owner working on the K100-forum now with a similar problem.
Do a Google search using this term. doesn't start site:motobrick.com
Go to the last few posts of each thread to learn how a problem might have been solved. Many problems were caused by simple, faulty connections, either mechanical or electrical. It's important to carefully read response here to the problem. In August, advice to check the fuel return line was given but not heeded until January. There likely could be several conditions contributing to this problem but there also could be just one.
Patience and thoroughness should be enough to solve it. Like Martin has observed, keep the basics in mind.
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I appreciate all the advice! Since I'm a cattle dietician by trade and weekend motorcyclist, my mechanical ability is not always adequate. I'm staring to wonder if being a brick owner is really a good idea for me. At this point I'm going to regroup and continue to get this old brick running, but would really like a bike that'll be reliable once it's running. I'm a better to fix the problem guy than go figure the problem out guy, so if you'll bare with me, I'll try not to ask too many dumb questions. Thanks agin, I appreciate all the help.
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I appreciate all the advice! At this point I'm going to regroup and continue to get this old brick running, but would really like a bike that'll be reliable once it's running.
Your persistence is admirable.
Motorcycles can be alluring enough to overcome better judgement. They are brilliant machines the workings of which are much more exposed to elements than cars and trucks. Despite that exposure, most can take hard usage if they get regular riding and maintenance. Regular riding dries the works and retards corrosion of electrical components. Regular maintenance—including washing—allows the mechanical parts to fully function.
It seems many prospective K-riders riders here don't realize that a neglected bike is likely to be a nest of problems, despite the site's being filled with anguished stories of their sometime costly and time-consuming challenges. If the purchaser of a neglected bike has undeveloped mechanical skill to attend to those problems or constraints on time to remedy them, frustration is usually the result.
Patience, persistence, self-education and often unexpected expenses are needed to get a neglected bike back on the road. With some bikes even that isn't enough. Those bikes are the ones that might be sold with ads reading, Ran well when it was parked a few years ago. Needs a tuneup and should be good to go.
You'll most likely get this bike underway with the help you get here and from other resources. How reliable it will be is a matter of how thoroughly you have pored over its systems, and luck. The best chance of getting a reliable ride that isn't labor-intensive or high-maintenance is to understand all the advantages and quirks of the type of bike that is wanted and to buy one that has been well-ridden throughout its recent ownership.
Keep asking and we'll keep answering.
. . . so if you'll bare with me . . .
Disappointing as it might be, I intend to remain clothed, here anyway. :giggles
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I'm a better to fix the problem guy than go figure the problem out guy, so if you'll bare with me, I'll try not to ask too many dumb questions.
I'll need to pass on that...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOgd9hitEAE
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The master cylinder is leaking and I'm not sure where it's coming from, are the internal parts that need to be evaluated or show the master cylinder be renewed?
Can the ecm be bench tested at home or at a dealer?
The alternator wasn't charging the battery when I tested it. Should I go ahead and replace it or do more tests need to be ran before renewing it?
I'll start a log of what's done and tested and what needs to be tested, I hope it doesn't take too much more to get her running again.
Supershooter
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The brush diode pack is easily removed to check and or replace, without removing the actual alternator. There are kits for the master cylinder available. However the internal condition of the master cylinder needs to be assessed to see if the bore is scored or pitted. Light marks can be honed out, deep scores or pitting will call for a replacement. Secondhand ones are available but might need a kit. You can get them sleeved but success rate in the US seems to be variable. We have a local guy who does them and tests and guarantees his work, cost is $200.00 AU. A rebuild kit should you need it down the track will set you back $10.00 AU. He will ship overseas but you need to ship him yours. With all the shipping it could get expensive. Gryph had trouble with the sleeving he had done in the US so I probably would avoid that guy.
Regards Martin.
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Thanks Martin, [size=78%]I'll check into the diode testing, and mc kits. [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]I spent more time in the shop since the last post, just to prove to myself I hadn't fixed anything I hooked up the tank, charged the battery, and tried to start the bike, no go. [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]So I pulled the spark plugs and found them to be wet after attempting to start the bike. So with this discovery would I conclude that I have fuel, and am lacking spark?[/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Supershooter [/size]
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You can have spark and fuel and it can still fail to fire. A faulty temperature sensor or connector can cause an overly rich mixture which causes flooding and failure to start. If you get stuck by the side of the road you can get them to fire by removing the plugs and let the engine dry out for 15-30 min. Alternatively remove the fuel pump fuse No 6 marked as Krafftestoppe or unplug the fuel pump. Replace the plugs and start the bike it should run on the residual fuel left in the combustion chamber. As the engine starts to die ram home the fuse or reconnect the pump. With a bit of throttle manipulation you can keep it running albeit roughly. Two people make the job easier but it can be done with one. If you can start it with this method try cleaning the connector with DeoxIT. If that doesn't work test the sensor's value with a multimeter.
Regards Martin.
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SuperShooter,
Way to stick with it!
After re-reading the thread and seeing the you used compressed air on the the fuel lines, is it possible that you might have blown something into the injectors? I know you had them sent out and pro cleaned, so you know they were good when you installed them when they got back. But when you were playing with the fuel system, did you flush the lines after hitting them with air? I bypassed my fuel pump from the starter button and just wired it to a batter to "flush" the system without letting the injectors fire. I was hoping that anything that was in the fuel lines or fuel rail would be pushed into the tank. I had lots of old nasty gas, varnish and other stuff. Once I was satisfied that my gas and fuel system was clean I tired to start the bike, it took a while but it did start.
If my chance there is too much fuel in each cylinder, blow them out with some compressed air and try again. Looks like even when you had her running it was not running well and or not idling well. How was the roll on throttle response, was it smooth or was it stumbling?
Take the plugs out, dry them with compressed air, dry each cylinder and then try it again. I really think you will get her running. Once you do then work on the battery charging issue.
With the wind and storm on the way, just stay warm and walk away when needed.
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Martin, I'll plan to try the solution you suggested, hopefully this weekend.
Tim, the compressed air could have blown some debris back into the tank through the check valve ( I only blew air through check valve into the tank), but I'm hoping the fuel filter and strainer will prevent it from getting to the injectors. The issue I had when the bike ran was throttle response during roll on or responsiveness of acceleration. I the bike ran down the road at 55-70 without any effort, and idled well.
The plugs all look the same when I pulled them out.
Supershooter
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Suppershooter,
I understand now, so the question with a FI system compared to a carb system, what caused the bike to not have power.
1. If the fuel pump always has 40 pis in the fuel rail, that should be good.
2. Is there more fuel that is pumped through the injectors when you are Wide Open Throttle? I would guess so, what controls that?
A. Throttle sensor
B. Mass Air Sensor
C. ECU and the ignition box
Is there a way that you can have all these things tested? I would hope so and that one of the much more qualified people other then me can tell you how :)
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I would hope so and that one of the much more qualified people other then me can tell you how :)
You can read all about how the engine systems interact, Timbox, and how to test some of them. Instruction is found in Bert Vogel's troubleshooting flow chart (http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/K100/download/bike-wont-start1.htm) in the Repair Guidance section.
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That is a awesome informational page! Thanks Laitch for pointing that out...so much info on this forum.
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So I pulled the spark plugs and found them to be wet after attempting to start the bike. So with this discovery would I conclude that I have fuel, and am lacking spark?
Did you ever determine the incoming fuel pressure to the injectors?
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Laitch
I haven’t ran a fuel pressure test yet, I’ve been dragging my feet because I need to rent a test kit, and I’m skeptical that it’s rhe problem but I’m closer to that step.
Supershooter
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Martin,
I removed the plugs dried them left the cylinders open for15 minutes, unplugged the fuel pump, hit the starter. The bike seemed to run for a few seconds and ran out of fuel, I plugged the fuel pump back in and it wouldn’t keep running or seem to try, as I unpluggged and re plugged in the fuel pump trying to recreate the little bit of run time, then I messed around until it backfired again and quit. So it might be a temp sensor...? Or did I uncover something else?
Supershooter
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As soon as you tried to restart with the pump plugged back in, more likely than not it flooded. Check the plugs, if they are wet most likely culprit is the sensor or sensor connection. Next step is to clean the connection, the step after that is to check the sensor. Getting to the connector and sensor is a pain so it is better to do both at the same time. I use a digital temperature probe and a container of boiling water and measure the resistance at every 5 C degree drop. You need to measure the resistance between the spade connector and the body of the sensor.
Regards Martin.
[ Invalid Attachment ] [ Invalid Attachment ]
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and I’m skeptical that it’s the problem but
Based on what—that nothing has worked so far? That's how it works. :giggles Read this thread (http://www.k100-forum.com/t13459-another-hard-starting-problem#159423) all the way to the end.
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Laitch,
I read the thread you shared and then went to town and got a fuel pressure test kit on loan from auto parts store. I took a little video trying to start the bike today. This way you can see what's going on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18LaVb-ZUUY
Hopefully the link works, this is my maiden voyage in the youtube world.
Supershoooter
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I'll bet that if you pull the plugs they are wet. It still looks like it is flooding and you need to check the sensor connection and sensor. With the lack of body work it would be easier to access going via removing the radiator. When mine first played up I could manage to get my hand by removing the air scoop and pushing up the coolant bypass hose and wriggle the sensor connector. I went in from the right hand side, however I do have small hands. And another time on a mates bike I managed with patience and luck to get the connector off by using a pick to spring the clip.
Regards Martin.
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Does the bike have to be running to get a fuel pressure reading?
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Once the bike has been running and is shut off there is residual pressure in the fuel rail for a while. The length of time will vary from bike to bike depending on the condition of pump, FPR and hoses. Any leaks will reduce the time the system retains pressure.
Regards Martin
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Is it possible to test fuel pressure on a non runner? My fuel pump runs but the bike doesn’t, will I get an accurate reading?
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The FPR requires engine vacuum to work. However you might be able to get a reasonably accurate reading. It should be around 35 Psi. After your last attempt did you check your plugs were they wet.
You can have spark and fuel and it can still fail to fire. A faulty temperature sensor or connector can cause an overly rich mixture which causes flooding and failure to start. If you get stuck by the side of the road you can get them to fire by removing the plugs and let the engine dry out for 15-30 min. Alternatively remove the fuel pump fuse No 6 marked as Krafftestoppe or unplug the fuel pump. Replace the plugs and start the bike it should run on the residual fuel left in the combustion chamber. As the engine starts to die ram home the fuse or reconnect the pump. With a bit of throttle manipulation you can keep it running albeit roughly. Two people make the job easier but it can be done with one. If you can start it with this method try cleaning the connector with DeoxIT. If that doesn't work test the sensor's value with a multimeter.
Regards Martin.
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Disconnect the fuel delivery line from the rail. Run the pump and verify that you can get a liter of gas in less than two minutes(I believe the spec is 35liters per hour).
Then put you gauge on the end of the line. The blocked pressure should be around 65psi for the OEM pump. It needs to be at least 40 to work with the pressure regulator. Make VERY SURE the connections are tight and don't let the pump run for more than a couple seconds. Be very careful disconnecting the gauge. There will be some residual pressure in the plumbing.
Low flow or low pressure and your pump is whack.
Then, tee into the line and connect it back to the rail. With the pump running, the pressure should be 35psi. If not, the regulator is whack.
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Fist off great vid on what the bike is doing, always helps to have pics and vids. The Mighty Gryphon has the next great step IMHO to make sure you are getting the right fuel PSI both from the pump and to the injectors.
I wasn't too sure if you didn't want to crank it too much or you are just used to doing short starter button bursts? I try to start my bikes for a good count of 10 but then hold off for a bit to cool the starter down.
Have you tried keeping the gas cap off and looking inside to the return line to make sure fuel is flowing back into the gas tank? You would have to do this while the starter button is being pushed to activate the pump relay.
Those little backfires that we hear, are they coming from the injector ports? I didn't see anything coming from the exhaust.
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The test kit from the local auto parts store only included a T in the test kit. So I was only able to test the pressure with the t fitting. After pushing the starter button the pressure in the line did rise to 35-36 psi, so I'm figuring the pump is good. I ran fuel into a gas can a while back and seemed to have gas gushing into the gas can even though I didn't measure how much was pumped. If I've misinterpreted my findings please say so.
Martin, I haven't pulled the plugs to verify the plugs are wet, but I'd bet they are wet, after seeing what I've seen so far. I can pull the water temp gauge out again, but when tested before it tested within spec at different temps even though I didn't test it every 10 degrees. I think if I pull the spark plugs and dry them off if could get it to backfire some more and maybe run a little until it runs out of gas. I can take more video of what happens to show my issues if that helps.
Just let me know what direction I should from here.
Supershooter
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Is the temperature sensor connection clean? Did you put thread tape or sealant on the sensor threads?
Regards Martin.
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I took a little video trying to start the bike today.
Nothing beats ending with bang. :clap:
Let's pretend nothing is wrong with the fuel pressure regulator. Now it's time to check the injection system. Use Vogel's troubleshooting manual to test electrical power at the fuel injectors.
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Martin,
I didn't use any thread tape or paste during reassembly, but did use deoxit on the electrical connections.
Supershooter
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With the engine not running, what is the resistance to ground on the injector terminals? All the injectors should be unplugged and the big plug on the Jetronic should be unplugged too. You want to see if there is a short to ground in the injector harness since the injectors are opened when they are grounded by the Jetronic.
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An internal combustion engine requires fuel, spark and compression. And all these have to occur at the correct time. As the common sources of running rich in a Brick seem to be OK, FPR and the temp sensor. Do you have compression?
Regards Martin.
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Martin,
Its possible that I lost compression, but I'm skeptical. I plan to keep investigating. When I was testing to see if the alternator was charging or not I was able to easily start the bike like many times before. After shutting off in between tests it wouldn't start again. That's what has me stumped, it ran fine on minute and wont start the next and it didn't even leave the center stand....?
I'll keep checking things until I figure it out. Ill post some video from last year when I got it to run after what could have been 10 years according to the PO who inherited the bike from a deceased brother. There was shear elation in my life on Feb 16, 2017
Superhooter
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Video 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBTbc36JYxo
Supershooter
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Video 2 More RPM's and a sticky throttle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dXrn3nfwxs
After this I was able to ride the bike about 50 miles this summer, before it quit again.
Supershooter
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Way to stick with it SuperShooter! :clap:
My next step would be to pull the injectors out of the TB's, but keep them on the fuel rail. Take a bit of cardboard or something similar and lay the injectors on the cardboard. Try to start the bike and see if the injectors are spraying on the cardboard in a good pattern. I only say this because I didn't see a pic of the inside of the gas tank. I did see how the rubber on the pump (like mine) was nasty. This would give you the proof you need that the injectors are working. The injectors have a locking system to keep them in the fuel rail, but be carefuller if you do this, they could pop out of the fuel rail and spray gas.
If the first time you removed the injectors you didn't clean out the TB side, some stuff could have gotten into the cylinders and caused some issues in the 50 miles you did have it running. I really hope this is not the case. The compression test will let you know how the cylinders are doing.
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I have just reread the last 4 pages of this thread.
1. It appears that the temperature sensor and the sensor wiring is good.
2. The pump is working
3. the pressure in the rail is correct
4. you have have plenty of pump flow
5. You have spark
6. The engine will start and run a second or two with the pump unplugged after it floods
7. The MAF appears to be working correctly.
Despite all the above, the engine is flooding. Unless the ECU is whack, the only other cause would be injectors that are open all the time.
The injectors are opened electrically by a GROUND pulse from the ECU. They are all connected in parallel in the harness. One terminal on each injector is connected to 12v whenever the bike is turned on. The other terminal is connected to a circuit in the ECU that controls how long the injectors are opened. The circuit has some transistors that act as switches connecting the injectors to the ground.
To test this, you need to get a 12v LED and some alligator clip test leads. Disconnect the injectors from the harness. Connect the POS wire of the LED to one of the injector connector terminals and turn on the ignition and touch the NEG wire to ground. THe LED should light. If it doesn't, reverse the connections and try again.
Once you can make the LED light, connect the NEG wire to the other terminal on the injector connector. Turn on the ignition. The LED should be out. Hit the starter, and while the engine is cranking the LED should blink.
I suspect from what you have been seeing that the LED will stay lit, meaning that the injectors are being held open, dumping uncontrolled fuel into the cylinders.
If that is the case, the problem could be the ECU, or a problem in the injector harness.
The next test is to unplug the big connector on the Jetronic unit. Take the POS wire from the LED and connect it to the Battery + terminal. If the LED lights up, you have a short to ground in the injector harness.
If it doesn't light up, reconnect the plug on the Jetronic. If it lights up, there may be a problem in the Jetronic. Turn on the ignition. Does the LED go out? If it stays on, the Jetronic is probably whack.
I have read about the output transistors in the Jetronic going bad. It doesn't appear to be a common problem, but it has happened. Someplace I read where there it can be repaired. Something to do with resoldering a broken connection or something like that. Maybe Laitch can find the link. He's amazing at stuff like that.
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Stolen from the K100 Forum. http://k-bike-knowledge.000webhostapp.com/electrical/EFI/bike-wont-start-EN.htm (http://k-bike-knowledge.000webhostapp.com/electrical/EFI/bike-wont-start-EN.htm)
If you buy a 12v indicator LED at the auto parts place you won't need the resistor.
To quickly check if the FI is working, plug an LED into one of the fuel injector connector.
(http://k-bike-knowledge.000webhostapp.com/electrical/EFI/efi-web%20page/FI-diode.jpg)
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Do I need a LED test light or can I get by with an old test light?
Side note, What's the trade count for?
Supershooter
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Test lights draw too much current and don't respond fast enough. Even though they aren't able to get to a visible level of light output, they will have a good chance of overloading the output transistors of the the ECU that drive the injectors. That is not good.
LED's are the only way to go.
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Do I need a LED test light or can I get by with an old test light?
You need a 12V LED according to the instructions developed by Bert Vogel that the Mighty Gryphon cites.
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greetings...
the pulses come fast... incandescent isnt fast enough for separation... you gotts to keep them separated or they aints pulses...
you want something that looks like this from the truck stop or napa... (https://www.amazon.com/Keyecu-Clearance-Indicators-Taillight-Trailer/dp/B075M4Q717/ref=sr_1_52?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1522143252&sr=1-52&keywords=red+3%2F4+12v+led+indicator)
j o
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Here's what I use:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/8mm-12v-Amber-LED-Metal-Indicator-Light-Pilot-Dash-Pre-Wired-LED-US-Seller/272274437704?hash=item3f64d23648:g:GdcAAOSw8b1aLJ0z&vxp=mtr
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TEST-LEAD-ALLIGATOR-CLIP-JUMPER-WIRE-LOT-OF-5-PAIRS-RED-BLACK/292492109279?hash=item4419e365df:g:tv8AAOSweW5VFXkp
Solder the alligator wires to the LED and you're good to go.
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I kinda figured the LED was used because of its sensitivity. Thanks for the help! Hopefully I’ll get some Shop time this weekend,being an adult has gotten in the way of being n the shop.
Supershooter
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Please excuse the remedial questions but I'm not sure I've understood all the directions. So far I've gotten a 12V LED and hooked it up to the injector lead[size=78%].[/size]
https://youtu.be/_jK9sY6S8do
I feel like I've skipped some steps please weigh in. Let me know if I've answered any questions or missed the boat completely.
I've read Bert's instructions and it seems like I'm missing things.
Supershooter
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I don't know about the other steps, but your video looks like your injectors are getting what looks like a good signal to fire and that they aren't on all the time to flood the engine.
Now, if it was me, the next thing I would do is check for a spark. Pull the plug wires one at a time and stick a good plug in it. Use a clip lead to put a good ground on the plug and crank the engine to confirm that you have a spark. On the k100 there are two plugs on each coil.
The engine needs three things to run, fuel, spark, and a little compression. So far we can be pretty sure you have the injectors opening so if the fuel pump is running, the fuel is there.
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Supershooter,
Way to stick with it! So if you know the fuel pump is working (passing gas by the fuel rail and injectors) and the injectors are getting voltage (so they can deliver gas to each cylinder) then spark is your next step. I know when I pulled my plugs and put them in the boots and just rested them on the valve cover, spark was easy to see. If you have spark too then pull the injectors again....This brick should be firing, backfiring or something.
Just a reminder If you didn't flush the fuel line, rail and return line before you installed those nice clean injectors, they could have been plugged.
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I think you should consider removing your fuel cap and installing it in the correct rotation 180º from its current position then checking the tank vent ports to be certain they aren't clogged, along with everything else you're doing. :yes
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Hey Guys,
Do to the fact my bike doesn’t run I'm willing to recheck things. So I checked for spark this afternoon. Here’s the video.
https://youtu.be/YMBZ3Gp_w54 (https://youtu.be/YMBZ3Gp_w54)
I have two of the three other plugs videos if they’d help I can upload them.
Laitch, another novice, issue on the gas cap. The cap installed in its current orientation when I purchased the bike and I never knew there was an orientation issue until now, Thanks
If you guys see something I missed please speak up, otherwise what next? The plugs were wet upon removal.
Supershooter
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I'm wondering if you've verified your plug wires and connections. Have you replaced the plug leads with new ones? If you have the original leads, have you tried starting the bike in the dark and watching for spark leak from your leads? Have you verified that the plug leads for cylinders #1 and #4 are connected to one coil, the plug leads for cylinders #2 and #3 are connected to the other coil and that each plug lead is connected with the correct cylinder's plug?
I've reread this thread a few times and I think now you should consider writing down all bike parts that have been replaced, all parts that have been verified as working correctly, and all tests that have been performed including their results then post that information at this point in the thread to eliminate the need for backtracking to the beginning.
The project will keep moving forward and hopefully the bike will get in motion too.
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Looks like you got spark :) Now you need to pull the injectors out of the motor but keep them in the fuel rail and make sure that you are getting fuel out of them. Air, Spark and fuel and she will run.
There are retention clips on the rail side of the injectors that should keep them in place when you pull them off the engine. Just stick a clean rag between the injectors and the engine. Crank if over a few times looks at the injectors to see if they are doing their jobs. There should be equal spray out of each of them and the rag should get wet from fuel.
I would also make sure you don't lose your confidence in what you have done with the bike. The idea of writing everything down on paper and then checking it off for the trouble shooting is a great idea.
If you feel that the injectors are working and you don't want to do the test please let me know and I will stop posting about it ;)
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Just to review the main points. You appear to have spark and fuel(wet plugs) and the injectors are pulsing. I'm not sure how much compression you have, Chris Harris advises adding some oil to the cylinders of an engine that hasn't been run for a while to get enough compression to start.
Assuming you have enough compression, the only other things that could prevent starting are bad ignition timing(very unlikely unless the mounting plate for the Hall Sensors is loose), flooding by an overly rich mixture, an overly lean mixture or weak coils.
A quick look at the Hall Sensors will tell if they are not loose and the timing is close, these engines seem to run okay over a fairly wide range of ignition timing. There is a circular cutout in the Hall plate that aligns with the surrounding engine. As long as that cutout is approximately aligned the timing will be close enough to start the engine.
A rich mixture can be caused by a faulty temperature sensor, excessive fuel pressure, or injectors stuck open. If the mixture is too rich and flooding the engine, I would make sure I have a fully charged battery capable of cranking the engine for an extended time. First, I would try to start the engine by cranking for 4-5 seconds. Then, disconnect the fuel tank connector and crank again, this time for at least 10 consecutive seconds maybe longer. Count it off to make sure you crank long enough. What you are doing is pumping the excess fuel out of the cylinders. At some point, the amount of fuel remaining will be enough to fire once or twice. It won't actually start the engine, but it will confirm that the engine is not getting a proper mixture.
On the other hand, it is possible, but unlikely, the mixture is too lean to fire. On other engines, I have put a shot of starting fluid in the intake. If the engine fires, that shows the mixture as too lean. While I've never done it with the brick engine, I would guess that I would try to put a good shot in the air box through the opening for the snorkel while the engine was cranking. Try it both with the fuel tank connected and disconnected. A lean mixture can be caused by blocked fuel passages or faulty temperature information.
I see that your bike is a 1985. It is known that the early K100's had coil problems. It is possible that your coils are weak enough that they cannot supply enough voltage to spark at the top of the compression stroke on wet plugs. Beyond replacing the coils I don't know exactly how to see if that is the problem. The only test I could think of would be to close up the spark plug electrodes by .010" or so and try starting the engine as described for the rich mixture test.. My thinking here is that a smaller plug gap might be easier to spark under compression with weak coils. If the engine starts, it probably means that you need to update with later model coils.
Hope this helps.
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Looks like you got spark :) Now you need to pull the injectors out of the motor but keep them in the fuel rail and make sure that you are getting fuel out of them. Air, Spark and fuel and she will run.
There should be equal spray out of each of them and the rag should get wet from fuel.
Well, he had the injectors reconditioned by Mr Injector and he asserts all the plugs are wet. Theoretically, with reconditioned injectors, clean fuel lines, a new fuel filter, no air restrictions or intake leaks, wiring connections in good condition, and correct signals from the control units, it should run if the spark leads are connected correctly. Mighty Gryph's suggestions are reasonable.
It is possible—as has been demonstrated more than once here—the engine will start shortly after somebody says, "Well lookee there. That isn't connected right."
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+1 on The Mighty and Laitch next steps...this is a head scratchier
What Octane gas 91? With no Ethanol?
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Watching your spark video I noticed that about every fourth spark is a lot brighter. Can you run the test again with a better ground? Clamping a ground wire to the spark plug and fastening the other end solidly to the engine.
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What Octane gas 91? With no Ethanol?
Neither are likely to have anything to do with this problem. These bikes will run just fine on 89 octane (AKI) with ≤10% ethanol.
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I've reread the thread and I some laughs along the way and as well as other emotions that have come out along the way.
What’s been done and tested so far.
After sitting for many years the previous owner and his mechanic changed the air filter, oil, oil filter, and key switch from a 4 position switch to a two position key switch and bought a new battery for it.
I take possession of the bike.
1. Cleaned the tank out
2. Replaced fuel pump, fuel pump screen, fuel filter, vibration dampener & support ring, and fuel line in the tank
3. Cleaned out the fuel rail
4. Replaced spark plugs
a. Confirmed Spark
5. Z Tube
6. Valve Clearances were measured and were in spec
7. Removed injectors and Mr. Injector, refurbished them
8. Inspected the splines
9. New tires
10. Replaced fork seals and fork oil
11. External Fuel Lines
12. Vacuum Hose replaced
13. Opened up the gauge cluster and discovered rust
a. Speedo Doesn’t work
b. Gear indicator doesn’t work
14. Drained and Replaced coolant
15. On Aug 27th I decided to tested the alternator to find out if it was charging or not, so by testing the battery for Voltage at idle and 3ooo RPM, while the bike was running I found the alternator was not charging the battery. After I turned the bike off, it would not restart. (hence major frustration since then)
16. Charged the battery, the bike will occasionally backfire but won’t run.
17. Replaced the check valve in the fuel tank
18. Removed temp sensor
a. Tested temp sensor readings were 2170 and 2222 Ohms at room temp 69 F in the house and 269Ohms at round boiling
b. Reassembled used dexoit in electrical connections upon reassembly
19. Tested Fuses in fuse block
20. Tested Fuel Pressure
a. 35-36 PSI
21. Tested Airflow Meter
a. Readings of 65, 320, 360, and 214 Ohms respectively
22. Attempted Start of the bike
a. Removed Plugs
b. Found them to be wet
c. Let them dry
d. Tried to start while messing with the fuel tank plug
e. Ran for a second or two
f. Wouldn’t continue run
g. Removed plugs again wet
23. Re Checked plugs for spark- video posted
24. Tested injector with a test light
I hope this limits the rereading for everyone else.
Supershooter
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I'm still just stumped how it went from firing up,and running to won't start....
Supershooter
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I'm still just stumped how it went from firing up,and running to won't start....
Thanks for the update. If we knew what was stumping you, we wouldn't be at this point. :giggles
Consider using your multimeter to follow the test procedures for the electronic ignition control unit (module), the fuel injection control unit and the coils as laid out in this document (http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/K100/download/bike-wont-start1.htm).
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Have you seen my post #211. Something about your video of the spark doesn't look right. In my post #208 I mentioned weak coils. Have you checked the electrical connections to the coils?
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TMG,
I appreciate the advice! I havent been able to work on the bike since I tested the spark plugs. The way my schedule looks I should get some shop time this weekend, fingers crossed. I'll be reading and researching until then. I agree with your comments about the spark strength, it looks variable to me also, so some additional testing seems apporpriate.
I stopped by the local dealer on Friday afternoon, and picked up some crush washers to fix the leaky brakes. While I was there the owner of the store and I discussed the issues I'm having and he said without a working alternator my bike wouldn't start. I disagreed. He treated me poorly and I really didn't want to stick around for any more of his attitude.
Supershooter
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just gonna have to trailor it to underscores near des moeinis... he will have it going in a heart beat... might not be his heart... butts a beat nuntheless... yeeeeehaaaaaaaaa...
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Johnny,
Can you clarify "underscores near DSM", please. I'm not familiar with them. Are they an Indy?
Supershooter
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greetings...
he can speak for himself... if he gotts the heart...
j o
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Ignition Coil testing, here’s a video. Is my techinque is correct?
https://youtu.be/Q3VNkTsh_jY (https://youtu.be/Q3VNkTsh_jY)
Supershooter
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Is anybody out there? Did I do something to get shunned?
Supershooter
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Not really sure what to tell you about your tests on your coils. They look like they may be the old style that had problems, but I never had a bike that had them. Don't know what the resistance readings should be. Maybe somebody more familiar with your model will add some additional information to the pot.
You might want to do a search on ignition coil problems. Then look for early model bikes, before 86-87. I think the later coils have orange or light brown insulation on the plug connections but I could be wrong.
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Ignition Coil testing, here’s a video. Is my techinque is correct? Is anybody out there?
Your technique testing the secondary terminals is flawed. The probes are not making solid contact with the internal terminals. Insert some wire into the openings to act as bridges to the internal terminals then touch the probes to those wires. Firm contact must be made. What values were you using as norms and where did you get them?
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Laitch,
I was figuring the readings Bert showed in his repair guide were benchmarks to use, 2.6 Ohms and 12.6 Ohms respectively.
I can retest to see if I can get a better reading. I was surprised I didn't get a reading since the plugs all showed a spark when I tested them.
Supershooter
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I can retest to see if I can get a better reading. I was surprised I didn't get a reading since the plugs all showed a spark when I tested them.
The coils might be faulty but you'll need to be certain your probes are making good contact with the terminals. I don't think they are.
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Trying to reach into the wire holes is hard to do and get a good reading. With these good temps are having get her up and running.
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Trying to reach into the wire holes is hard to do and get a good reading.
I'm having trouble picturing what is hard about this. What methods have you tried?
I'd be inclined to stick a framing nail head-first down in there then touch the probe to its shaft, but I might twist up some electrical wire into a dense column that would be long enough to protrude from the opening, push it down in there then touch the probe to it. If I had an old spark plug lead, I might cut it to length, shove it in there and try it.
If you've done things like that and can't get consistent readings then it might be time to replace the coils.
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PLEASE READ THIS!
http://www.k100-forum.com/t6114-1984-85-k100-ignition-coils (http://www.k100-forum.com/t6114-1984-85-k100-ignition-coils)
Posts #1 & 2
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PLEASE . . .
Please (http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/videos/1601_23_04_18_11_21_12.mp3)
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The Godfather!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vruy2GRUsV8
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The Godfather!
The Godfather and his designated healthcare provider.
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I read, the link, and more than just posts 1&2.
After reading and becoming slightly confused, I've decided to order new Bosch ignition coils, plugs wires and alternator.
I'll get parts ordered and installed and let everyone know if we make progress or not. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
As one of my coworkers says, "there isn't a problem that can't be fixed by throwing money at it" so here we go!
Supershooter
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As I'm shopping for new ignition coils I've found a Bosch replacement coil on Euromotoeleterics website, but it only has 2 posts to attach wires whereas my old coils has 3 posts. Do I order them or are these incorrect?
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/boigncoil-k513.htm
Supershooter
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greetings...
if your moto is (k589) and is listed in their application table (http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/boigncoil-k513.htm)... i think you are good... butts at that kinda dough id call them... they are 100% pro and will know for sure...
j o
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but it only has 2 posts to attach wires whereas my old coils has 3 posts. Do I order them or are these incorrect?
Stay calm. There's the third—at the tip of the arrow.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/1/1601-290418142439.jpeg)
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Thanks, I really didn't want to fiddle around sending back incorrect parts. they'll be ordered shortly.
Supershooter
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Reman Alternator and new plug wires got here earlier this week. Still waiting for ignition coils.
I’ve got the old alternator out and am work to reinstall the new one, any tricks to get it to slide in? I’m fighting to get it in, the new rubber gasket seems to be a pia to get slide onto the driver.
Supershooter
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If you are referring to the monkey nutz in the alternator here's what I do.
Mark the spots on the outside of the alternator clutch hub with a sharpie marker where the fins on the drive dog need to align to slide in between the monkey nutz. There should be some lines molded into the hub at these points as well. Lube the nutz and the fins on the dog liberally with vaseline. With the sharpie marks lined up with the fins push the alternator into place.
It helps a lot to have the starter and the battery out for this job. The more room you have the easier it will be.
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TMG,
I never imagined I'd see monkey nuts and vasaline in a post about mc repair, :hehehe
I'll give the lubricant a try later this week as adulthood is going to start consuming my time agin.
Thanks for the ideas.
Supershooter
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TMG,
Copious amounts of vasaline on monkey nuts, makes the alternator slide in like without an issue.
I removed the starter, cleaned electrical connections that had dry corrosion, slide the alternator in, slide the starter back in, it was really satisfying when everything worked like it was supposed to.
Still waiting for the ignition coils.
Supershooter
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Smear a bit of Kopper Kote around the mating surfaces of the starter, it will save you grief in the future. :dunno2: A mate had to rig up a slide hammer setup to get his out, it had corroded in.
Regards Martin.
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Good to hear you are getting it back together. Here's hoping you are out riding soon.
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I removed the radiator, cleaned the fins and rinsed with water. After cleaning the radiator I bench tested the fan. Finally something worked like it was supposed to!
The new alternator, ignition coils, and plug wires are installed, I'll get everything buttoned up and try to start it again. I hope it starts...
Supershooter
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I’d there anything I should be checking in here?
Supershooter
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After reassembly it started, I was sure how to react. I rode it around my yard. I'll try it again later today and see what happens.,
Supershooter
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After reassembly it started . . .
That's just plain weird. :giggles
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TMG,
Copious amounts of vasaline on monkey nuts, makes the scrotator slide in like without an issue.
I removed the starter, cleaned electrical connections that had dry corrosion, slide the scrotator in, slide the starter back in, it was really satisfying when everything worked like it was supposed to.
Still waiting for the ignition coils.
Supershooter
Did you clean the starter while you had it out? -> [size=78%]http://www.ibmwr.org/ktech/starter-cleaning/starter-cleaning.shtml (http://www.ibmwr.org/ktech/starter-cleaning/starter-cleaning.shtml)[/size]
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Gentleman,
Strokester, I wasn't aware of the need to clean the starter or would have done that while it was apart, not that it can be tore apart again, but at this point it runs seemingly well.
Laitch, my surprise comes because I'm not exactly sure what I did to fix the problem. With that being said I'm concerned I'll go out to start it next time it and won't start. Paranoided I know
On a side note, I was able to ride the ole girl to town a 100 temps to have ice cream with my wife and kids and fill the tank with fuel. Oh my that thing is hot to ride when it's hot outside WOW!
The headlight doesn't come on when the bike runs, so I'll have to get that working and the bike is leaking brake fluid somewhere around the master cylinder area.
It looks like this will be an on going project from the foreseeable future, but atleast it runs! Hooray!!!
Supershooter
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Ride on! :riding:
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Congrags on putting her back together and having her run. At this point do you really care what the fix was :) I think all the hard work paid off and I am just glad you got her back on the rd.
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At this point I have a leaky master cylinder and a headlight that only illuminates the parking light but not the large headlight. Should these issues be brought up in new threads or I this one?
Any ideas onthe headlight issue? From my research it seems like a load shed issue or high low switch issue, any things or first this then that advice.
I'm not sure if I want to tear into the dot 4 leak or not.
Supershooter
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Should these issues be brought up in new threads or I this one?
Any ideas on the headlight issue? From my research it seems like a load shed issue or high low switch issue, any things or first this then that advice.
Keep the issues in this one. It's easier to keep track of what has been done.
Maybe your headlight bulb is burnt out. Believe it or not, that happens.
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I would start with what ever area you feel is easiest. One end (the head light) or the other (swx). I think my swx was in need of some TLC and once I cleaned it, it felt like it should have in the first place.
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Since I'll be disassembling the head light, are there any recommendations for a better bulb/LED or such?
Supershooter
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Since I'll be disassembling the head light, are there any recommendations for a better bulb/LED or such?
If this were my bike, I'd install a $10 60/55W H4 to determine if the bulb is the problem. If that fixed it, I'd buy another $10 60/55 H4 as a spare and swap it in next season if necessary. There's always this to consider (https://www.google.com/search?q=Headlight+upgrade+site%3Amotobrick.com&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8) though. :giggles
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When I test the headlight working at the plug what should my reading be and which wires at hot an ground?
Supershooter
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White = High beam
Yellow = Dip beam
Brown = ground
Best mod to do to your lighting system, better than any aftermarket bulb, is to install an Eastern Beaver relay kit (http://easternbeaver.com/Main/Wiring_Kits/H4_Kits/h4_kits.html) or DIY the same thing (http://www.kbikeparts.com/classickbikes.com/ckb.tech/0.ckb.tech.files/hl.relays/hl.relays.htm).
Do you get high beam when you try the Flash button on the left hand controls (ignition on, kill switch normal, press flash button)?
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I took the advice and bought a new light bulbs. Unfortunately not my issue, no light with the new bulb. Where should I go from here?
In a more positive note I was able to remove the exhaust shield after the last person to work on this Brick stripped out one of the bolts that held the shield on.
Supershooter
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Power for the headlight goes through the ignition switch, load shed relay and the left hand combination switch. There are a number of connectors in the path where a loose or dirty connection can prevent light from getting out of the bulb.
I would get an electrical diagram of the bike and start tracking the 12v from the battery to the bulb.
One tip. I have found that it is easier to hear confirmation of power than to see it. I say this because I am normally looking at where I am sticking the test probe, and it seems that every time I look away at my meter, the probe slips off the spot I want to test. A buzzer or a horn will confirm the presence of power while still letting you concentrate on where you are testing.
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... it seems that every time I look away at my meter, the probe slips off the spot I want to test.
Alligator clip leads are your friend, Jim. A set of cheap alligator leads is around $5 - $10. My personal favourite and what I recommend is the Fluke TP920 Test Probe Accessory set from Amazon. Top quality product.
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I have a ton of alligator clip leads, but still really like my little piezo box that does 12v and continuity testing. One of the best pieces of kit I ever built. It's especially nice when I am trying to test in the female half of small multi pin connectors where even mini alligator clips have a hard time. Plus there is no need to have to position it so I can see a display, it can be anywhere and I'll hear the beep.
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Well, during my test ride I hear the heat shield rattling, so I removed it. The P.O. stripped out a bolt head so I ground it off. Yesterday Dad and I sandblasted and repainted it. I’ll get back to the headlight issues after this diversion is over.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180617/7e5991f19af1e948628c6e64503a9a2c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180617/44bed91c332bef6436532a16251031c9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180617/1ba21fb1ccd8948ace10a265bc3feea4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180617/0669a471245433bfe1ca7ab9d0288f19.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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If the rear master cylinder is leaking, there is a post for a easy swap to a Chinese alternative for $13.33 Au. Depending on the model you may have to swap the hose. At that price I even carry a spare in stock. Quite a few members are running them with no problems recorded so far in over 12 months.http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,9364.msg90596.html#msg90596
Regards Martin.
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Martin it's unfortunately the front. Preparation for new carpet got I the way of progress today, hopefully things slow down late this week.
The heat shield repair only cost $16.50 plus my free labor.
Supershooter
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Update,
My uncle stopped by yesterday and we made good progress on the headlight issue. We installed the new(used) ignition switch. He also helped me figure out that the high-low switch had gotten to hot at some point inthe past, ruining the switch. So I'll need a new left side switchgear. So are the Eureopean switchgear the same as the US switchgear? I find switchgear on eBay from overseas but nothing in the US.
We are also convinced that the master cylinder needs a rebuild kit. Any suggestions on the best place to purchase a rebuild kit? Beemerboneyard?
Supershooter
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I find switchgear on eBay from overseas but nothing in the US.
There's one at kbikeparts.com right now. Here (http://www.kbikeparts.com/p/elec/k11rsswitchesleft.jpg) is a photo of it.
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See if you can repair it first: http://www.k100-forum.com/t174-headlamp-switch-repair
If not, the European switchgear for the left side is identical. The European right side switchgear differs in that it has a headlight ON-OFF switch which is missing on North American models.
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Laitch,
I found the switch you referred me to, will this one work for my 85 K100 RT? I'd prefer a plug and play but cut and solder may be an option if it has to be.
RBM,
I'm not sure fixing this switch will be in my wheelhouse, I appreciate the suggestion.
Supershooter
Left Combination Switch
61312305231
K1, K1100RS, K1100LT, R100GS, R100PD, R80GS, R80PD, R100MYS, R100R, R80MYS, R80R, R80GS/96
(I think model year 96+ K1100LTs had a built-in windscreen switch - this doesn't have that!)
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Laitch,
I found the switch you referred me to, will this one work for my 85 K100 RT? I'd prefer a plug and play but cut and solder may be an option if it has to be.
Left Combination Switch
61312305231
K1, K1100RS, K1100LT, R100GS, R100PD, R80GS, R80PD, R100MYS, R100R, R80MYS, R80R, R80GS/96
(I think model year 96+ K1100LTs had a built-in windscreen switch - this doesn't have that!)
View the text of the switch below that one (http://www.kbikeparts.com/windswitch.htm). It explains how to graft that switch using your bike's connector. The windscreen switch offers possibilities for alternative uses. Fitment should be verified with the vendor. Posi-locks with heat-shrink tubing could be substituted for solder connections. As rbm has indicated though, left-side Euro switches should work with your bike.
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Thanks Laitch,
I can see the value of the additional switch now. Do you have a quick link to adding cruise with this type of switch?
Supershooter
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The following is a writeup on installing a cruise control on K75 / K100. Same site as Laitch directed you to, but with the details of the cruise install.
http://www.kbikeparts.com/classickbikes.com/ckb.tech/0.ckb.tech.files/eleccruise/eleccruise.htm
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I'm not sure I can get the left side switchgear cord removed from the frame so buying a switchgear with an extra switch with be just fine. If I'm mistaken please let me know.
Supershooter
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I'm not sure I can get the left side switchgear cord removed from the frame so buying a switchgear with an extra switch with be just fine. If I'm mistaken please let me know.
You're being too cryptic for me to determine if you're mistaken. Let's just say you're mistaken anyway. :giggles
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What happened to the conclusion on this thread?
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What happened to the conclusion on this thread?
It is a continuing thread, steven. Right now, he's trying to solve a headlight switch gear problem. Do you have any help or suggestions to offer?
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Laitch your starting to sound like my wife, if in doubt he's mistaken. :hehehe I was looking at removing the switchgear, wire, and wire connector, from the bike, but it runs through a small hole in the front of the frame. So it looks like the only way it'll come apart is if I cut it an d pull from both ends.
Supershooter
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So it looks like the only way it'll come apart is . . .
Ask yourself, How was this installed originally—in two pieces, more than two? How did they do that?
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It looks like it’d fit through the opening if it was the only thing in the hole. Unless I remove everything else it won’t fit. I’m planning to buy a switchgear that’ll need modification to accept and aftermarket cruise so this really shouldn’t be an issue.
Supershooter
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It looks like it’d fit through the opening if it was the only thing in the hole.
What else is in the hole—anything of value? Let's have a couple of photos; I haven't been there.
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I think you need to remove this piece(#7 side covering).
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This article (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=824.0) might be encouraging.
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In this case haste made waste. Thanks to All your help, I continued disassembly and removed the evertything intact.
Supershooter
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180716/974e3b2773b0eb3442755f75c24288e2.jpg)
Switchgear came now I’m working on installation.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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The headlight works!
I reassembled the bike and took it out on a longer ride after some test riding around my property.
The bike gave me some issues, first it wanted to die riding down the road at highway speed, I fiddled with the electrical connection, fixing this issue, I thought. When I'd come to stop signs and get stopped and be ready to go again the bike had trouble revving up it acted like it wasn't getting enough fuel and it'd die and restart without me hitting the starter. And then it'd get over its fit and run normally.
I'm not sure what to look at to address this gremlin
Supershooter
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Have you done anything to increase the reliability of the four pin tank connector? They get loose and cause problems like you are having. I would assume you have already been in there, but if you haven't, that is the first place I would look.
Another source of trouble similar to what you are seeing is the ignition switch. Do the lights and instruments do strange things when the engine is acting up? Do you have any problems with the starter turning when you try to start the engine? A starter that responds intermittently to the start button can be a sign of a dirty ignition switch.
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TMG,
I've only cleaned the 4 pin connector under the tank. Is there a maintenance guide/guide to replacement of that?
I did wire in a new ignition key switch last week, maybe one of my solder connections wasn't up to spec. Are there ways to test or clean it?
I do best with pictures or video when it comes to learning how to test and fix.
Thanks for help, Supetshooter
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I disassembled my key switch and the guts looked brand new. I wondering if the folks that sold it and just cleaned it or if it was just that clean after all these years. Unfortunately i didn't fix any thing just checked one more thing off the list. After reassembly I had it other responsibilities that demanded the rest of my day. I plan to check continunuity next, if that doesn't lend any clues I'll be looking for more direction.
Supershooter
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I removed the starter, cleaned electrical connections that had dry corrosion . . .
Does that mean you cleaned the commutator and checked the length of the brushes?
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Does that mean you cleaned the commutator and checked the length of the brushes?
I only cleaned the external connections.
I'm confused by the question. What's the connection?
My issue seems to be speratic and typically only when going the acclerate after stopping for a stop sign after riding at highway speed. It seems to act like a short, but who knows, I'm not a good mechanic.
Supershooter
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On an old K bike you need to disassemble the starter(a not difficult job) and check the brush length and clean the crap out of the commutator.
This is important because a number of electrical circuits are grounded through the starter commutator. If there is a bad ground through the starter you will have all sorts of strange electrical problems. If you haven't taken the starter apart yet, I strongly advise that you do so before any other troubleshooting.
Regarding your drivability issues it would be very helpful if you pull the spark plugs and post a clear photo of what the electrodes look like. That will help identify if your problem is a lean or a rich mixture problem or if the problem is somewhere else like the ignition.
Speaking of fuel mixtures, have you run any Techron through the system recently. My experience with a couple K bikes that sat in storage is that they need several good doses of Techron to get all the parts in the fuel system working properly. In my first K100 it took nearly 2,000 miles and at least 6 or 7 tanks with Techron to get it running as smooth and strong as I thought it should.
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It seems to act like a short, but who knows, I'm not a good mechanic.
Who knows? A legion of owners who have been plagued by this and discussed it with members here. It probably should have been noticed sooner in your case. Anyway, here is robmack's tutorial (http://www.k100-forum.com/t2342-starter-motor-cleaning-tutorial).
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Who knows? A legion of owners who have been plagued by this and discussed it with members here. It probably should have been noticed sooner in your case. Anyway, here is robmack's tutorial (http://www.k100-forum.com/t2342-starter-motor-cleaning-tutorial).
Sometimes I open my mouth when I should just keep quiet.
I do appreciate all the knowledge that's been shared with me thus far and would have already sold this old brick of it hadn't been for finding all you fine folks.
I checked continuity on the key switch wires up to the connector.
I have read the instructions for cleaning the starter and my starter is now sitting on my table ready to be torn down, cleaned and inspected.
My progress was interrupted by my wife and kids wanting to go for an evening ride on the utv and mc, it was time well spent.
Supershooter
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I disassembled the starter, cleaned the carbon off the commuter ring, and reassembled. There was a dark layer of carbon from the brushes and needed Deoxit and a brush to get rid of it.
I reassembled the rest of the bike that had been dismantled to to address the issues I had been having. A short test ride was performed, pervious issues didn't appear during the ride.
I hope I fixed the issues but will need more miles to validate any success, as my issues were serpatic and impossible to replicate on demand.
Hopefully we have an extended Indain summer here in Liberty Township.
Supershooter
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Good luck...it is a nice feeling when things work!
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Another short test ride, 17 miles to the auto parts store for a bottle of Techron, over to the gas station, filled with 91 and rode home. Bike runs good, no speratic issues yet.
Supershoter
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This is as dramatic as the final episode of Lost. :giggles The reviews on that were mixed though. Don't be shy; give it some stick and bounce over the potholes to shake out the bugs—within walking distance, of course. Hang in there, Supershooter!
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I took a late afternoon ride earlier this fall before the snow flew. I was able to push the bike a little into a couple of S curves. I was aware of the bikes hesitation the run smooth through the twisties from a prior ride through the same curves a few weeks earlier. So before I left home I adjusted the rear shock to see if it would effect the handling. Unfortunately it didn't change anything and I pushed the bike hard enough to get it to hop through the curves. How do i diagnose what needs attention? It's somewhat unnerving to feel like you might get bucked off, while your leaning into a curve at a brisk rate of speed.
Supershooter
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I've got a slow drain on the battery so I pulled out all the fuses to stop the power from leaving the battery. After pulling all the fuses the speedo light and headlight came on, is this normal or is something wired wrong?
Supershooter
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I've got a slow drain on the battery so I pulled out all the fuses to stop the power from leaving the battery. After pulling all the fuses the speedo light and headlight came on, is this normal or is something wired wrong?
Supershooter
You paint the moto mystic red and name her “Christine”? Then its normal
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You paint the moto mystic red and name her “Christine”? Then its normal
She's a "bottle blond", PO painted her Yellow, she was a red head originally. Maybe her name is Christine...?
I'll keep looking for the mysterious power issues.
Supershooter
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Some run separate heavier wires directly from the battery to the headlight for more lumens. There is a kit - Eastern Beaver?
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Yep here is a link to the headlight relays (https://easternbeaver.com/Main/Wiring_Kits/H4_Kits/h4_kits.html) by Eastern Beaver
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Is this with the key in the off position?
The headlights came on when you removed which fuse? That might point to the cause.
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As far as I know, the headlight isn't fused. The headlight is wired directly to the battery through the load shed and combination switches. There are no fuses in that circuit.
Look at the load shed relay and it's circuitry.
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True, so removing the fuses should not turn the headlight on, but in this case it did, is what I think is being said. If, it's with the key in the off position, which is a big if.
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(https://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5332-131119224025.jpeg)
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I pulled the fuses with the key in the off position, no lights. I turned the key to the on position and the headlight and dash lights lit. I was surprised that anything lit up, I figured everything was fused. So I was just thinking I'd ask this crew if this was how it was supposed to work.
Supershooter
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I've got a slow drain on the battery so I pulled out all the fuses to stop the power from leaving the battery. After pulling all the fuses the speedo light and headlight came on, is this normal or is something wired wrong?
Supershooter
I pulled the fuses with the key in the off position, no lights. I turned the key to the on position and the headlight and dash lights lit. I was surprised that anything lit up, I figured everything was fused. So I was just thinking I'd ask this crew if this was how it was supposed to work.
Supershooter
You had the brain trust all scratching their heads
Thats flocking hilarious!
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OK, so the battery drain issue.
One old way, with the clock disabled, and a Voltmeter between the battery negative strap and the battery negative post, remove fuses with constant power(red) on the feed side, to check for Voltage drop. If no luck, unplug different circuits.
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OK, so the battery drain issue.
One old way, with the clock disabled, and a Voltmeter between the battery negative strap and the battery negative post, remove fuses with constant power(red) on the feed side, to check for Voltage drop. If no luck, unplug different circuits.
That might be how electrons flow in the southern hemisfere e.g. ammeter
In northern hemisfere
A voltmeter has to be connected in parallel to the Load (e.g.resistor) to measure potential difference across 2 points
To test for a parasitic drain, you need to insert a resistor shunt into the ground cable and measure any voltage drop across it. Here's the process:
1. Purchase two 2Ω 1% 1Watt precision resistors from a reputable online electronics house like Digikey (https://www.digikey.com/) or Mouser (https://www.mouser.com/). Connect them in parallel.
2. Remove all fuses and make sure the ignition is off
3. insert the resistor pair between the ground wire from the negative terminal of the battery and the grounding point on the transmission.
4. Attach a voltmeter across the resistor pair and set the scale to 1V, if available. The voltage you read will be equivalent to the parasitic current. For example, a parasitic current of 1A will indicate 1V; a current of 100mA will indicate 0.1V (100 mV) and so on. E = I x R R=1Ω
5. Note the voltmeter reading with all the fuses out and the ignition off. It should be zero or near zero.
6. Insert each fuse and read the voltage. If no change in reading, then remove the fuse and insert the next one.
7. Eventually, if you have a problem, the voltmeter will indicate a non-zero reading. Now you know which circuit on the bike is the culprit. You have narrowed your search. Diagnose the circuit.
At no time, should you turn on the ignition or try to start the bike. This will blow apart the resistor shunt with the current draw.
While connecting care should be taken that negative terminal of the VOM is connected to that end of resistor which is connected towards negative of the battery.
If VOM is connected in series then due to high resistance no current will flow through circuit so no voltage drop occur... its indicates zero and if ammeter is connected in parallel due to low resistance it will act like short circuit so chances of ammeter blows its fuse.
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One old way, with the clock disabled, and a Voltmeter between the battery negative strap and the battery negative post, remove fuses with constant power(red) on the feed side, to check for Voltage drop. If no luck, unplug different circuits.
That might be how electrons flow in the southern hemisfere In northern hemisfere
A voltmeter has to be . . . . . .
They flow the same way in the North and South hemispheres and the old way still works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdIKNnwEjIs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdIKNnwEjIs)
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I pulled the fuses with the key in the off position, no lights. I turned the key to the on position and the headlight and dash lights lit. I was surprised that anything lit up, I figured everything was fused. So I was just thinking I'd ask this crew if this was how it was supposed to work.
Supershooter
Geeez!!! Now you tell us! You had me thinking that pulling the fuses turned on the lights with the ignition off.
Banging my head against the wall...
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Geeez!!! Now you tell us! You had me thinking that pulling the fuses turned on the lights with the ignition off.
Banging my head against the wall...
Thats flocking hilarious!
This last page reads an exersise of Incertae sedis.
You can't make this stuff up :laughing4-giggles:
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Thanks Laitch.
I was going to make an unfortunately long reply, but I won't bother now. Before I pressed the post button, I thought I wonder if this quick lazy reply is going to bite me on the bum. But I pressed anyway, with the hope that someone will follow up with the better, but harder to describe Amp meter test.
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Thanks Laitch.
I was going to make an unfortunately long reply, but I won't bother now. Before I pressed the post button, I thought I wonder if this quick lazy reply is going to bite me on the bum. But I pressed anyway, with the hope that someone will follow up with the better, but harder to describe Amp meter test.
Oh how blasé
Please give us your extended version.
We are hanging at the yacht club or lounging in a hammock sipping cool drinks with plenty of spare time on our hands delighted to the intrinsic VOM
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How old is the battery? Was it stored last winter with less than a full charge on it?
Batteries stored with a partial charge will have the plates damaged, and over time will lose their ability to hold a charge. It may be a very good idea to take your battery to an auto parts or battery store to have it load tested. It will be time well spent before ripping the bike's wiring apart chasing a nonexistent problem.
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Hi volador,
We are all brick brothers and sisters here.
This thread is not about me or you, or even your yacht. Supershooter is looking at a battery problem.
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But I pressed anyway, with the hope that someone will follow up with the better, but harder to describe Amp meter test.
I think Eric describes a pretty good method in the video. Supershooter should go with that.
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Hi volador,
We are all brick brothers and sisters here.
This thread is not about me or you, or even your yacht. Supershooter is looking at a battery problem.
Hi daveson,
Reading this thread I don't think Ss know what the flock is the problem has the brain trust banging their proverbially heads against the wall
Prepping the yacht for Raivavae, French Polynesia fishing expedition
May the brick brother and sister-hood remain strong!
Tally-ho and keep the shiny side up!
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Laitch
The video was very helpful, hopefully I can get back to the shop in the near future, holidays and hunting season are dominating my free time, Thanks again
Supershooter
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That might be how electrons flow in the southern hemisfere e.g. ammeter
In northern hemisfere
A voltmeter has to be connected in parallel to the Load (e.g.resistor) to measure potential difference across 2 points
To test for a parasitic drain, you need to insert a resistor shunt into the ground cable and measure any voltage drop across it. Here's the process:
1. Purchase two 2Ω 1% 1Watt precision resistors from a reputable online electronics house like Digikey (https://www.digikey.com/) or Mouser (https://www.mouser.com/). Connect them in parallel.
2. Remove all fuses and make sure the ignition is off
3. insert the resistor pair between the ground wire from the negative terminal of the battery and the grounding point on the transmission.
4. Attach a voltmeter across the resistor pair and set the scale to 1V, if available. The voltage you read will be equivalent to the parasitic current. For example, a parasitic current of 1A will indicate 1V; a current of 100mA will indicate 0.1V (100 mV) and so on. E = I x R R=1Ω
5. Note the voltmeter reading with all the fuses out and the ignition off. It should be zero or near zero.
6. Insert each fuse and read the voltage. If no change in reading, then remove the fuse and insert the next one.
7. Eventually, if you have a problem, the voltmeter will indicate a non-zero reading. Now you know which circuit on the bike is the culprit. You have narrowed your search. Diagnose the circuit.
At no time, should you turn on the ignition or try to start the bike. This will blow apart the resistor shunt with the current draw.
While connecting care should be taken that negative terminal of the VOM is connected to that end of resistor which is connected towards negative of the battery.
If VOM is connected in series then due to high resistance no current will flow through circuit so no voltage drop occur... its indicates zero and if ammeter is connected in parallel due to low resistance it will act like short circuit so chances of ammeter blows its fuse.
Don't knock it if you haven't tried it, you can use a Voltmeter in series.
As unusual as bricks are, I tried it on my brick, to be sure, to be sure.
The reading across the battery was 12.7V. Placing a Voltmeter between the battery negative lead and post, revealed 12.1V (not zero as stated in the above quote) This reveals a circuit, the clock.
Removing fuse three (supplying power to the clock) and repeating the test, revealed 0.02V. This shows there is no drain on the battery. This is a quick way of testing everything except circuits related to fuse three. If I replaced fuse three and removed the clock, the reading would again be close to zero, leaving only the clock to test, which I know is good.
Hopefully Supershooter would get the same result. Another quick test would be Gryph's suggestion, simply get the battery tested.
Although this method shows if there is a drain on the battery, it doesn't reveal how many Amps, so the Amp meter test is better. If you're not familiar with these tests, there is less chance of damaging your multimeter with the Voltmeter test.