Post by: DJEwen on August 01, 2019, 12:47:57 PM
I’ve just gone out to take my Motobrick for a ride and she didn’t start, after a few attempts I could smell fuel, I then realised fuel is steadily dripping from the exhaust when start button is pressed.
I went to grab my multimeter and the trouble starting guide, dropped the multimeter and smashed the screen... I’ve ordered a new one.
In the meantime I pulled the vacuum hose that connects between throttle body #4 and the bottom of the fuel pressure regulator to check for a presence of fuel, it was dry so I suspect there isn’t a diagram leak in the FPR.
Is there anything else I can do in the interim without a multi meter?
Post by: Laitch on August 01, 2019, 01:21:49 PM
Is there anything else I can do in the interim without a multi meter?Disconnect, reconnect the electronic fuel injector control unit plug; remove the fuel pump fuse and crank to dry off the plugs or remove them, dry them lovingly and individually, replace them then try starting with no throttle.
Post by: DJEwen on August 01, 2019, 02:09:25 PM
Disconnect, reconnect the electronic fuel injector control unit plug; remove the fuel pump fuse and crank to dry off the plugs or remove them, dry them lovingly and individually, replace them then try starting with no throttle.
Done as you said, no change. The plugs weren’t overly wet but I pulled them all, cleaned and gapped them. I cranked the bike with the plugs out and the pump and injectors disconnected to clear the inlets and it looked like #2 and #4 weren’t sparking (difficult to see as I’m in my own) so potentially a cool issue? Why are the injectors remaining open and pouring fuel in? Video of fuel leak below.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-010819140449-23541286.jpeg)
https://youtu.be/3Arx07mOfag (https://youtu.be/3Arx07mOfag)
Post by: Laitch on August 01, 2019, 02:53:41 PM
Why are the injectors remaining open and pouring fuel in? Video of fuel leak below.Because one or more is stuck open and there is enough fuel pressure to force fuel through the aperture.I went to grab my multimeter and the trouble starting guide, ...
Consider not using that trouble starting guide. It's starting too much trouble—reaching out and affecting coordination and gravity. :laughing4-giggles:
Post by: Laitch on August 01, 2019, 03:02:10 PM
it looked like #2 and #4 weren’t sparking (difficult to see as I’m in my own)If you have a timing light, ground it, put the inductive clamp around each suspected plug's wire, crank the starer and see if it lights.
Post by: Martin on August 01, 2019, 03:55:55 PM
Regards Martin.
Post by: Soggz on August 05, 2019, 06:28:23 AM
Post by: Gr-Racing on August 05, 2019, 12:35:12 PM
Post by: DJEwen on August 05, 2019, 02:56:27 PM
Post by: Laitch on August 05, 2019, 03:39:07 PM
Thanks for the input, everyone. Is there a way of testing the switch before I rip it out and replace it?You'll need a multimeter. Go to this post (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,11295.msg98535.html#msg98535) the open the document in the link at the bottom of the post. Three-quarters of the way through it you'll find an explanation of how to test various circuits on the L-Jetronic plug. There is an illustration of the plug with the circuits labeled. You'll be checking Pin #10—the coolant temperature sensor—to see how its values correspond with those on the table in that section.
Post by: Soggz on August 05, 2019, 04:19:55 PM
Post by: DJEwen on August 05, 2019, 05:09:41 PM
You'll need a multimeter. Go to this post (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,11295.msg98535.html#msg98535) the open the document in the link at the bottom of the post. Three-quarters of the way through it you'll find an explanation of how to test various circuits on the L-Jetronic plug. There is an illustration of the plug with the circuits labeled. You'll be checking Pin #10—the coolant temperature sensor—to see how its values correspond with those on the table in that section.
Thanks, Laitch. My new multimeter should arrive tomorrow.
Or just replace it.
I’ve ordered one so it’s getting replaced, but I still want to know for myself that this was the only issue.
Post by: Soggz on August 06, 2019, 02:13:30 AM
Thanks, Laitch. My new multimeter should arrive tomorrow.with those symptoms, and the advice from the good people on here, there’s not much else to go wrong. If the new one dosnt work, get the injectors professionally cleaned. It cost me £50.00 over here.
I’ve ordered one so it’s getting replaced, but I still want to know for myself that this was the only issue.
Post by: DJEwen on August 06, 2019, 03:57:52 AM
with those symptoms, and the advice from the good people on here, there’s not much else to go wrong. If the new one dosnt work, get the injectors professionally cleaned. It cost me £50.00 over here.
I agree but what I’ve learned with this bike is that there’s always something new going on. I’ll take pleasure completing the test, at least I’ll know how it’s done point forward. Every day is a school day.
That’s not a bad price, I was looking at replacing them altogether with 4 hole ones but may go down the cleaning route. I have 4 spare so can send them off.
Post by: Soggz on August 06, 2019, 07:30:19 AM
I agree but what I’ve learned with this bike is that there’s always something new going on. I’ll take pleasure completing the test, at least I’ll know how it’s done point forward. Every day is a school day.tbh, if the injectors are working ok, there’s no need to replace them, from what I’ve read. They either work, or they don’t, apparently. 4 hole ones don’t make a lot of difference. People think they do, but they are new with clean parts. Mine are old, but have been cleaned and work great. Save your money, and replace some of the crap bmw nuts and bolts and electrical connections, instead!
That’s not a bad price, I was looking at replacing them altogether with 4 hole ones but may go down the cleaning route. I have 4 spare so can send them off.
Post by: DJEwen on August 06, 2019, 02:45:27 PM
tbh, if the injectors are working ok, there’s no need to replace them, from what I’ve read. They either work, or they don’t, apparently. 4 hole ones don’t make a lot of difference. People think they do, but they are new with clean parts. Mine are old, but have been cleaned and work great. Save your money, and replace some of the crap bmw nuts and bolts and electrical connections, instead!
You’re not the first to mention the non improvement in the 4 hole ones, I’ll give them a miss and get a set cleaned.
Anyway, when I built the bike it was a piece of cake to remove the original temperature sensor as I had the stand pipe off the block and everything stripped down. Different story tonight, I’m not sure if there’s a massively expensive one time use BMW tool for doing this but the design is shit. No space for a spanner, too long a plug for a normal socket, no space for a long reach, no space for purchase with pipe grips etc. I ended up hack sawing the plug off then removing with a standard socket. New temp sender is en route.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-060819143710-23591713.jpeg)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-060819143852-2360892.jpeg)
Post by: Martin on August 06, 2019, 03:29:52 PM
Regards Martin.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on August 06, 2019, 05:41:47 PM
No reason why cleaning your injectors has to be dull.
Post by: DJEwen on August 08, 2019, 05:26:17 AM
Just buy a couple battles of Techron and put half a bottle per tank for 3-4 tanks of high rpm riding over a 2-3 week period. You should start to notice a difference around the second tank. This has worked on two k100's for me.
No reason why cleaning your injectors has to be dull.
That's effectively what I've done, Gryph.
Post by: Laitch on August 08, 2019, 02:25:24 PM
No space for a spanner, too long a plug for a normal socket, no space for a long reach, no space for purchase with pipe grips etc. I ended up hacks Seong the plug off then removing with a standard socket. New temp sender is en route.You didn't go after it by removing the air box first and fetching it from behind the radiator?
Post by: DJEwen on August 08, 2019, 04:37:54 PM
Post by: Laitch on August 08, 2019, 06:42:26 PM
Is that the procedure? would have the same access issues from either side presumably?Presumably? :nono2: There seemed to be enough room in there when I removed the air box.
Here's mlytle's take.
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Post by: DJEwen on August 09, 2019, 07:12:10 AM
Presumably? :nono2: There seemed to be enough room in there when I removed the air box.
Here's mlytle's take.Screen Shot 2019-08-08 at 6.40.10 PM.png (59.76 kB . 768x470 - viewed 410 times)
Hmm, I'd still argue the access to the fitting is a poor design as the above the barb is the problem, however, removing the air box is a much lesser job than dropping the coolant and removing the radiator! I'm happy however to see that my coolant was immaculate at least :laughing4-giggles:
Post by: natalena on August 09, 2019, 09:07:33 AM
Just buy a couple battles of Techron and put half a bottle per tank for 3-4 tanks of high rpm riding over a 2-3 week period.
No reason why cleaning your injectors has to be dull.
Just received Techron from Amazon Prime at $7.99/20oz bottles. Seemed to be a reasonable price for an in-vitro cure, and prophylactic.
Post by: volador on August 09, 2019, 09:31:05 AM
Post by: billday on August 09, 2019, 03:52:43 PM
IMHO that Techron stuff looks, smells, tastes, feels just like Kerosene
That's just, like, your opinion, man.
Post by: DJEwen on August 15, 2019, 03:33:26 PM
Out on the road I found an issue and this may be completely unrelated to the temp sensor change but immediately when demanding generous throttle the bike spluttered, popped, backfired. This went on for about 20 miles before it started to get a little better. I stopped for half an hour, got back on the bike and it was slightly improved (or at least it felt like it) What I’ve realised is that provided I’m smooth or of you like, linear in my request for throttle the bike responds normally, if I wind her round and demand wide open throttle it’s splutters, backfires and pops.
The changes are obviously the temperature sensor itself, but also, the spark plugs obviously had petrol pouring over them during the fault find as you can see from the earlier video. I had pulled them, dried them and reinstated them.
It’s strange it’s only doing this under WOT.
If anyone has any suggestions or experience with this that would be great? Thanks in advance. Dave.
Post by: Soggz on August 15, 2019, 06:03:43 PM
I installed the new temperature sensor, reinstated the radiator, topped up the coolant, went for start and she fired up and idled like normal, warmed up, fan kicked in and out, all was well so I went out on the road.synch the throttle bodies, maybe?
Out on the road I found an issue and this may be completely unrelated to the temp sensor change but immediately when demanding generous throttle the bike spluttered, popped, backfired. This went on for about 20 miles before it started to get a little better. I stopped for half an hour, got back on the bike and it was slightly improved (or at least it felt like it) What I’ve realised is that provided I’m smooth or of you like, linear in my request for throttle the bike responds normally, if I wind her round and demand wide open throttle it’s splutters, backfires and pops.
The changes are obviously the temperature sensor itself, but also, the spark plugs obviously had petrol pouring over them during the fault find as you can see from the earlier video. I had pulled them, dried them and reinstated them.
It’s strange it’s only doing this under WOT.
If anyone has any suggestions or experience with this that would be great? Thanks in advance. Dave.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on August 15, 2019, 06:59:42 PM
Post by: volador on August 16, 2019, 02:57:56 AM
I installed the new temperature sensor, reinstated the radiator, topped up the coolant, went for start and she fired up and idled like normal, warmed up, fan kicked in and out, all was well so I went out on the road....
It’s strange it’s only doing this under WOT.
1) Adjust the Throttle Position Switch
2) Dodgy Hall Effect Sensor
3) Misbehaving AFM
Post by: DJEwen on August 16, 2019, 05:09:46 AM
synch the throttle bodies, maybe?
They're synced.
Spark plugs with a lot of carbon on them often have issues with firing under high cylinder pressure which can occur when going wide open throttle. You might want to pull the plugs and change them or at least give them a good cleaning before going much deeper into other stuff.
Thanks Gryph, a few people have suggested changing the plugs, the characteristics certainly match the symptoms of a spark issue, be it via Plugs, HT leads or coils. Do you know of a good spark plug cleaning process?
1) Adjust the Throttle Position Switch
2) Dodgy Hall Effect Sensor
3) Misbehaving AFM
Potentially, I think investigation of spark will be the first exploration given the issue arising since the plugs were saturated and removed.
Post by: Soggz on August 16, 2019, 10:01:48 AM
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on August 16, 2019, 10:27:57 AM
I've used carb cleaner and other solvents with less than stellar results. I've heated them and wire brushed the carbon off and then installed the still warm plug to start my snowblower or lawnmower but the head sucks the heat out of the plug to quickly to give any advantage on a bigger engine.
If it were my bike and the plugs had more than a couple thousand miles on them I would spring for a set of new NGK plugs. They are fairly cheap and could save you a lot of time chasing other stuff.
Post by: DJEwen on August 16, 2019, 10:32:12 AM
To clean mine, I heat till red with a blowtorch, hold in a vice or pliers, blow out with an airline, wirebrush and re-gap. They come up as good as new. Also, I have found, heating them, then putting back into the bike still hot, gives them a nice warm start, and helps initial ignition. Hope this helps.
Thanks, Soggz.
Cleaning: Back in the day when I rode bikes aith 2 stroke engines we had a spark plug cleaner that cleaned them with abrasive and compressed air.
I've used carb cleaner and other solvents with less than stellar results. I've heated them and wire brushed the carbon off and then installed the still warm plug to start my snowblower or lawnmower but the head sucks the heat out of the plug to quickly to give any advantage on a bigger engine.
If it were my bike and the plugs had more than a couple thousand miles on them I would spring for a set of new NGK plugs. They are fairly cheap and could save you a lot of time chasing other stuff.
Cheers, Gryph. Are the NGK’s preferred? That’s what was in the moto when I purchased it but I added new Bosch ones during the build.
Post by: Soggz on August 16, 2019, 10:48:34 AM
Post by: mw074 on August 16, 2019, 11:16:07 AM
Post by: DJEwen on August 16, 2019, 03:53:36 PM
I pulled the plugs and cleaned them as advised in earlier reply’s, went out on the road and the moto is behaving better than ever! Thanks all for the advice.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-160819150054-23681400.jpeg)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-160819150121-2369164.jpeg)
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on August 17, 2019, 07:16:19 PM
Post by: DJEwen on August 18, 2019, 04:59:48 PM
I’m wondering if the HT leads may be bad? They were very difficult to give any internal form of restoration during the build as they are sealed units but I cleaned as best I could. I’ve taken some photos and you’ll probably agree they need replaced. I’ve ordered a set of Ram Power Leads from BSK speedworks. I haven’t pulled the plugs to check for further fouling again but the only visual change I noted upon putting the moto away was that I used a touch more oil than usual, say maybe 2 to 3mm in the sight glass, however, nearly all of the 140 miles were hard WOT miles.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-180819164755-23781902.jpeg)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-180819164648-23722153.jpeg)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-180819164707-23765.jpeg)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-180819164648-23752301.jpeg)
Post by: Laitch on August 18, 2019, 05:14:21 PM
I’m wondering if the HT leads may be bad? .Sure, and by the way, don't expect to find work as a hand model unless it's as the Before model.
Clean the coil terminals themselves and determine both the primary and secondary lead values with your new multimeter.
Post by: Soggz on August 18, 2019, 05:52:38 PM
I had the moto out on a 140 mile spirited run and she ran beautifully, better than ever I would say. Unfortunately in the last mile from my house, and after sitting in traffic at high temperatures, I opened her up on wide open throttle for the last stretch and it started to splutter again, exactly the same symptoms as earlier.2 to 3 mm Of oil seems a lot. Did you let it drain down for a day to see exactly how much you used? The oil gets thrown around a bit and takes its time to get back into the sump.
I’m wondering if the HT leads may be bad? They were very difficult to give any internal form of restoration during the build as they are sealed units but I cleaned as best I could. I’ve taken some photos and you’ll probably agree they need replaced. I’ve ordered a set of Ram Power Leads from BSK speedworks. I haven’t pulled the plugs to check for further fouling again but the only visual change I noted upon putting the moto away was that I used a touch more oil than usual, say maybe 2 to 3mm in the sight glass, however, nearly all of the 140 miles were hard WOT miles.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-180819164755-23781902.jpeg)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-180819164648-23722153.jpeg)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-180819164707-23765.jpeg)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-180819164648-23752301.jpeg)
Post by: Laitch on August 18, 2019, 07:21:28 PM
Post by: DJEwen on August 19, 2019, 01:43:32 PM
Sure, and by the way, don't expect to find work as a hand model unless it's as the Before model.
Clean the coil terminals themselves and determine both the primary and secondary lead values with your new multimeter.
Before model is my kind of thing :D
While awaiting my new leads I performed tests of the coils, are the values of 12.6 Kohms at the high voltage terminals and 2.6 ohms at the primary coils as quoted in Vogles troubleshooting guide ‘THE’ values that are supposed to be present and is there any leeway in these? He states he tested two spare and they “give you an idea of what to expect”
My reading are as follows:
1 & 4: 2.6 ohms and 10.5 kohms
2 & 3: 2.6 ohms and 12.7 kohms
Does this indicate a bad #1-4 Coil Pack?
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-190819132424-2385971.jpeg)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-190819132408-2384405.jpeg)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-190819132356-23831638.jpeg)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-190819132251-2382394.jpeg)
Post by: Laitch on August 19, 2019, 02:19:08 PM
My reading are as follows:10.5 ohms represents ~18% value drop. That seems significant. Do the plugs in 1 and 4 look different from those in 2 and 3? Have you done a running or cranking inspection of the engine in the dark looking for spark leakage in the coils and plug wires?
1 & 4: 2.6 ohms and 10.5 kohms
2 & 3: 2.6 ohms and 12.7 kohms
Does this indicate a bad #1-4 Coil Pack?
Post by: DJEwen on August 19, 2019, 02:41:15 PM
10.5 ohms represents ~18% value drop. That seems significant. Do the plugs in 1 and 4 look different from those in 2 and 3? Have you done a running or cranking inspection of the engine in the dark looking for spark leakage in the coils and plug wires?
Indeed significant. I haven’t yet done a running inspection in the dark, I’ll do that tomorrow evening. I also haven’t re-pulled the plugs but I’ll do that also tomorrow.
I have a spare coil from the other bike, I couldn’t get any reading across the high power outputs.
Post by: DJEwen on August 20, 2019, 12:24:06 PM
The new leads are on order (since Sunday passed) and today I ordered a used coil from Motorworks. It comes Pre tested and with a 6 month warranty for £40. A single new unit was £170.
Post by: DJEwen on August 23, 2019, 05:18:21 AM
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-230819051328-2394961.jpeg)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-230819051322-2393539.jpeg)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/5327-230819051328-23942088.jpeg)
Post by: Laitch on August 23, 2019, 06:15:16 AM
Post by: Scott_ on August 23, 2019, 06:35:25 AM
Post by: DJEwen on August 23, 2019, 07:40:39 AM
flog that moto now while conditions allow it.
:yawl: I'm keeping it forever!
I have the RAM wires on both my bikes, I really like them and they have been holding up real well.(I've had them a while now, got them when they were 1st released)
Glad to hear it, Scott. They certainly seem very well manufactured.