Author Topic: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now with issues!  (Read 106368 times)

Offline Supershooter

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #200 on: March 27, 2018, 10:12:50 AM »
I kinda figured the LED was used because of its sensitivity. Thanks for the help! Hopefully I’ll get some Shop time this weekend,being an adult has gotten in the way of being n the shop.
Supershooter
  • Liberty Township, O'brien County, Iowa
  • 85 K100 RT

Offline Supershooter

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #201 on: April 02, 2018, 09:18:20 PM »
Please excuse the remedial questions but I'm not sure I've understood all the directions. So far I've gotten a 12V LED and hooked it up to the injector lead[size=78%].[/size]






I feel like I've skipped some steps please weigh in. Let me know if I've answered any questions or missed the boat completely.


I've read Bert's instructions and it seems like I'm missing things.


Supershooter
  • Liberty Township, O'brien County, Iowa
  • 85 K100 RT

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #202 on: April 02, 2018, 09:49:57 PM »
I don't know about the other steps, but your video looks like your injectors are getting what looks like a good signal to fire and that they aren't on all the time to flood the engine.

Now, if it was me, the next thing I would do is check for a spark.  Pull the plug wires one at a time and stick a good plug in it.  Use a clip lead to put a good ground on the plug and crank the engine to confirm that you have a spark.  On the k100 there are two plugs on each coil.

The engine needs three things to run, fuel, spark, and a little compression.  So far we can be pretty sure you have the injectors opening so if the fuel pump is running, the fuel is there. 
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline Timbox

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #203 on: April 02, 2018, 10:18:26 PM »
Supershooter,

Way to stick with it!  So if you know the fuel pump is working (passing gas by the fuel rail and injectors) and the injectors are getting voltage (so they can deliver gas to each cylinder) then spark is your next step. I know when I pulled my plugs and put them in the boots and just rested them on the valve cover, spark was easy to see.  If you have spark too then pull the injectors again....This brick should be firing, backfiring or something.

Just a reminder If you didn't flush the fuel line, rail and return line before you installed those nice clean injectors, they could have been plugged.
  • Tomah, Wisconsin
  • 87 K100 RS
1987 K100RS current project :)
In shed: 07 Bandit 1250, 86 FJ1200, 85 Madura 1200 and KLR650

Offline Laitch

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #204 on: April 03, 2018, 12:05:07 PM »
I think you should consider removing your fuel cap and installing it in the correct rotation 180º from its current position then checking the tank vent ports to be certain they aren't clogged, along with everything else you're doing.  :yes
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles

Offline Supershooter

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #205 on: April 04, 2018, 08:09:24 PM »
Hey Guys,
Do to the fact my bike doesn’t run I'm willing to recheck things. So I checked for spark this afternoon. Here’s the video.



I have two of the three other plugs videos if they’d help I can upload them.


Laitch, another novice, issue on the gas cap. The cap installed in its current orientation when I purchased the bike and I never knew there was an orientation issue until now, Thanks


If you guys see something I missed please speak up, otherwise what next? The plugs were wet upon removal.


Supershooter
  • Liberty Township, O'brien County, Iowa
  • 85 K100 RT

Offline Laitch

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #206 on: April 04, 2018, 11:54:26 PM »
I'm wondering if you've verified your plug wires and connections. Have you replaced the plug leads with new ones? If you have the original leads, have you tried starting the bike in the dark and watching for spark leak from your leads? Have you verified that the plug leads for cylinders #1 and #4 are connected to one coil, the plug leads for cylinders #2 and #3 are connected to the other coil and that each plug lead is connected with the correct cylinder's plug?

I've reread this thread a few times and I think now you should consider writing down all bike parts that have been replaced, all parts that have been verified as working correctly, and all tests that have been performed including their results then post that information at this point in the thread to eliminate the need for backtracking to the beginning.

The project will keep moving forward and hopefully the bike will get in motion too.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles

Offline Timbox

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #207 on: April 05, 2018, 08:33:16 AM »
Looks like you got spark :)  Now you need to pull the injectors out of the motor but keep them in the fuel rail and make sure that you are getting fuel out of them.  Air, Spark and fuel and she will run.

There are retention clips on the rail side of the injectors that should keep them in place when you pull them off the engine.  Just stick a clean rag between the injectors and the engine.  Crank if over a few times looks at the injectors to see if they are doing their jobs.  There should be equal spray out of each of them and the rag should get wet from fuel. 

I would also make sure you don't lose your confidence in what you have done with the bike.  The idea of writing everything down on paper and then checking it off for the trouble shooting is a great idea. 

If you feel that the injectors are working and you don't want to do the test please let me know and I will stop posting about it ;)
  • Tomah, Wisconsin
  • 87 K100 RS
1987 K100RS current project :)
In shed: 07 Bandit 1250, 86 FJ1200, 85 Madura 1200 and KLR650

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #208 on: April 05, 2018, 09:39:01 AM »
Just to review the main points.   You appear to have spark and fuel(wet plugs) and the injectors are pulsing.  I'm not sure how much compression you have, Chris Harris advises adding some oil to the cylinders of an engine that hasn't been run for a while to get enough compression to start.

Assuming you have enough compression, the only other things that could prevent starting are bad ignition timing(very unlikely unless the mounting plate for the Hall Sensors is loose), flooding by an overly rich mixture, an overly lean mixture or weak coils.

A quick look at the Hall Sensors will tell if they are not loose and the timing is close, these engines seem to run okay over a fairly wide range of ignition timing.  There is a circular cutout in the Hall plate that aligns with the surrounding engine.  As long as that cutout is approximately aligned the timing will be close enough to start the engine.

A rich mixture can be caused by a faulty temperature sensor, excessive fuel pressure, or injectors stuck open.  If the mixture is too rich and flooding the engine, I would make sure  I have a fully charged battery capable of cranking the engine for an extended time.  First, I would try to start the engine by cranking for 4-5 seconds.  Then, disconnect the fuel tank connector and crank again, this time for at least 10 consecutive seconds maybe longer.  Count it off to make sure you crank long enough.  What you are doing is pumping the excess fuel out of the cylinders.  At some point, the amount of fuel remaining will be enough to fire once or twice.  It won't actually start the engine, but it will confirm that the engine is not getting a proper mixture.

On the other hand, it is possible, but unlikely, the mixture is too lean to fire.  On other engines, I have put a shot of starting fluid in the intake.  If the engine fires, that shows the mixture as too lean.  While I've never done it with the brick engine, I would guess that I would try to put a good shot in the air box through the opening for the snorkel while the engine was cranking.  Try it both with the fuel tank connected and disconnected.   A lean mixture can be caused by blocked fuel passages or faulty temperature information.

I see that your bike is a 1985.  It is known that the early K100's had coil problems.  It is possible that your coils are weak enough that they cannot supply enough voltage to spark at the top of the compression stroke on wet plugs.  Beyond replacing the coils I don't know exactly how to see if that is the problem.  The only test I could think of would be to close up the spark plug electrodes by .010" or so and try starting the engine as described for the rich mixture test..  My thinking here is that a smaller plug gap might be easier to spark under compression with weak coils.  If the engine starts, it probably means that you need to update with later model coils.

Hope this helps.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline Laitch

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #209 on: April 05, 2018, 09:51:30 AM »
Looks like you got spark :)  Now you need to pull the injectors out of the motor but keep them in the fuel rail and make sure that you are getting fuel out of them.  Air, Spark and fuel and she will run.
 There should be equal spray out of each of them and the rag should get wet from fuel. 
Well, he had the injectors reconditioned by Mr Injector and he asserts all the plugs are wet. Theoretically, with reconditioned injectors, clean fuel lines, a new fuel filter, no air restrictions or intake leaks, wiring connections in good condition, and correct signals from the control units, it should run if the spark leads are connected correctly. Mighty Gryph's  suggestions are reasonable.

It is possible—as has been demonstrated more than once here—the engine will start shortly after somebody says, "Well lookee there. That isn't connected right."
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles

Offline Timbox

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #210 on: April 05, 2018, 12:01:48 PM »
+1 on The Mighty and Laitch next steps...this is a head scratchier

What Octane gas 91?  With no Ethanol? 
  • Tomah, Wisconsin
  • 87 K100 RS
1987 K100RS current project :)
In shed: 07 Bandit 1250, 86 FJ1200, 85 Madura 1200 and KLR650

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #211 on: April 05, 2018, 12:19:57 PM »
Watching your spark video I noticed that about every fourth spark is a lot brighter.  Can you run the test again with a better ground?  Clamping a ground wire to the spark plug and fastening the other end solidly to the engine.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline Laitch

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #212 on: April 05, 2018, 01:32:05 PM »
What Octane gas 91?  With no Ethanol?
Neither are likely to have anything to do with this problem. These bikes will run just fine on 89 octane (AKI) with ≤10% ethanol.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles

Offline Supershooter

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #213 on: April 08, 2018, 05:43:55 PM »
I've reread the thread and I some laughs along the way and as well as other emotions that have come out along the way.

What’s been done and tested so far.

After sitting for many years the previous owner and his mechanic changed the air filter, oil, oil filter, and key switch from a 4 position switch to a two position key switch and bought a new battery for it.

I take possession of the bike.

1.   Cleaned the tank out
2.   Replaced fuel pump, fuel pump screen, fuel filter, vibration dampener & support ring, and fuel line in the tank
3.   Cleaned out the fuel rail
4.   Replaced spark plugs
a.   Confirmed Spark
5.   Z Tube
6.   Valve Clearances were measured  and were in spec
7.   Removed injectors and  Mr. Injector, refurbished them
8.   Inspected the splines
9.   New tires
10.   Replaced fork seals and fork oil
11.   External Fuel Lines
12.   Vacuum Hose replaced
13.   Opened up the gauge cluster and discovered rust 
a.   Speedo Doesn’t work
b.   Gear indicator doesn’t work
14.   Drained and Replaced coolant
15.   On Aug 27th I decided to tested the alternator to find out if it was charging or not, so by testing the battery for Voltage at idle and 3ooo RPM, while the bike was running I found the alternator was not charging the battery. After I turned the bike off, it would not restart. (hence major frustration since then)
16.   Charged the battery, the bike will occasionally backfire but won’t run.
17.   Replaced the check valve in the fuel tank
18.   Removed temp sensor
a.   Tested temp sensor readings were 2170 and 2222 Ohms at room temp 69 F in the house and 269Ohms  at round boiling
b.   Reassembled used dexoit in electrical connections upon reassembly
19.   Tested Fuses in fuse block
20.   Tested Fuel Pressure
a.   35-36 PSI
21.   Tested Airflow Meter
a.   Readings of 65, 320, 360, and 214 Ohms respectively
22.   Attempted Start of the bike
a.   Removed Plugs
b.   Found them to be wet
c.   Let them dry
d.   Tried to start while messing with the fuel tank plug
e.   Ran for a second or two
f.   Wouldn’t continue run
g.   Removed plugs again wet
23.   Re Checked plugs for spark- video posted
24.   Tested injector with a test light

I hope this limits the rereading for everyone else.

Supershooter
  • Liberty Township, O'brien County, Iowa
  • 85 K100 RT

Offline Supershooter

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #214 on: April 08, 2018, 06:47:48 PM »
I'm still just stumped how it went from firing up,and running to won't start....
Supershooter
  • Liberty Township, O'brien County, Iowa
  • 85 K100 RT

Offline Laitch

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #215 on: April 08, 2018, 07:23:42 PM »
I'm still just stumped how it went from firing up,and running to won't start....
Thanks for the update. If we knew what was stumping you, we wouldn't be at this point. :giggles

Consider using your multimeter to follow the test procedures for the electronic ignition control unit (module), the fuel injection control unit and the coils as laid out in this document.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #216 on: April 08, 2018, 10:48:47 PM »
Have you seen my post #211.  Something about your video of the spark doesn't look right.  In my post #208 I mentioned weak coils.  Have you checked the electrical connections to the coils?
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline Supershooter

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #217 on: April 09, 2018, 09:02:04 PM »
TMG,
I appreciate the advice! I havent been able to work on the bike since I tested the spark plugs. The way my schedule looks I should get some shop time this weekend, fingers crossed.  I'll be reading and researching until then. I agree with your comments about the spark strength, it looks variable to me also, so some additional testing seems apporpriate.


I stopped by the local dealer on Friday afternoon, and picked up some crush washers to fix the leaky brakes. While I was there the owner of the store and I discussed the issues I'm having and he said without a working alternator my bike wouldn't start. I disagreed. He treated me poorly and I really didn't want to stick around for any more of his attitude.


Supershooter

  • Liberty Township, O'brien County, Iowa
  • 85 K100 RT

Offline johnny

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #218 on: April 09, 2018, 09:10:41 PM »
just gonna have to trailor it to underscores near des moeinis... he will have it going in a heart beat... might not be his heart... butts a beat nuntheless... yeeeeehaaaaaaaaa...
  • :johnny i parks my 96 eleven hundert rs motobrick in dodge county cheezconsin  :johnny

Offline Supershooter

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #219 on: April 11, 2018, 08:25:21 PM »
Johnny,

Can you clarify "underscores near DSM", please. I'm not familiar with them. Are they an Indy?

Supershooter
  • Liberty Township, O'brien County, Iowa
  • 85 K100 RT

Offline johnny

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #220 on: April 11, 2018, 08:37:09 PM »
greetings...

he can speak for himself... if he gotts the heart...

j o
  • :johnny i parks my 96 eleven hundert rs motobrick in dodge county cheezconsin  :johnny

Offline Supershooter

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #221 on: April 15, 2018, 07:03:47 PM »
Ignition Coil testing, here’s a video. Is my techinque is correct?





Supershooter
  • Liberty Township, O'brien County, Iowa
  • 85 K100 RT

Offline Supershooter

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #222 on: April 19, 2018, 07:07:34 PM »
Is anybody out there? Did I do something to get shunned?


Supershooter
  • Liberty Township, O'brien County, Iowa
  • 85 K100 RT

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #223 on: April 19, 2018, 08:00:45 PM »
Not really sure what to tell you about your tests on your coils.  They look like they may be the old style that had problems, but I never had a bike that had them.  Don't know what the resistance readings should be.  Maybe somebody more familiar with your model will add some additional information to the pot. 

You might want to do a search on ignition coil problems.  Then look for early model bikes, before 86-87.  I think the later coils have orange or light brown insulation on the plug connections but I could be wrong.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline Laitch

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Re: 1985 K100 RT That didn't run...does now!
« Reply #224 on: April 19, 2018, 09:56:56 PM »
Ignition Coil testing, here’s a video. Is my techinque is correct?
Is anybody out there?
Your technique testing the secondary terminals is flawed. The probes are not making solid contact with the internal terminals. Insert some wire into the openings to act as bridges to the internal terminals then touch the probes to those wires. Firm contact must be made.  What values were you using as norms and where did you get them?
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles

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