Author Topic: Arktasian's 95 K75 on Microsquirt Mod Table  (Read 16445 times)

Offline Arktasian

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  • Posts: 100
Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2017, 06:02:57 PM »
Interested in the MS details when you work that out  :yes .

By the way, there's just barely enough room for a supercharger if you remove the stock airbox and "balloon" intake.

I feel guilty to have posted about this project before really having the wheels on the ground so to speak (in fact is on what used to be grandma's kitchen table which is now the serious project zone in my basement workshop).
Regardless, I have both a healthy respect for what might prove challenging with the MS conversion, and a pretty well developed game plan which I will post a list of fairly soon here. One of the more challenging aspects tends to be developing your tune files and I already have an MSQ drawn up that I'm confident with, she'll fire up on 1st crack. That's a way's off.

Sounds like someone has been contemplating a blower up top?
I am impressed with the room that has developed with those items removed and I'll probably removed the throttle bodies for a good clean up, plus a throttle position sensor to reside where the on/off switch was mounted ( :clap:)

Riding season is about to start up here however (going to plate tonight for the RT) so things may quiet for a while.


Offline wmax351

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Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2017, 12:28:15 PM »
Interested in the MS details when you work that out  :yes .

By the way, there's just barely enough room for a supercharger if you remove the stock airbox and "balloon" intake.


That would be cool. There's a guy that has made some supercharged original goldwings.
  • Ann Arbor, MI
  • 1991 BMW K75 Standard, Refreshed '94 engine
Bikes:
Current:
1991 BMW K75 Standard, Refreshed '94 engine


Past:
'83 BMW R65LS (An R65 with a prototype K Bike Front End)
'75 Honda CB550F
'69 Honda CB175
1999 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 (Last month of the original '55 model)
1973 Triumph Tiger TR7V (5 speed, Right Shift, Disc Brake)
1971 BMW R75/5 in Toaster outfit
1979 Harley Davidson XLS-1000 Sportster Roadster

Offline Arktasian

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  • Posts: 100
Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2017, 03:42:23 PM »
For sure, although I'm a big fan of the "free energy" a turbo enjoys off the exhaust rather than a crankshaft shive.
I have a buddy here at the West Coast that has Turbo'd his Gold Wing, an 1800cc. I did a trip up into the interior of BC last summer with him & in hind sight - I believe he loves the route as it is extremely steep, double lane through the mountains and very curvy to boot. Its kind of a rolling dyno for him and he took off like a shot as we started climbing. I tried to keep up to him with my 83 R100RT(turbo) and basically ran out of suspension and nerve - well, after hitting a few rough spots on steep sweepers where the "Rubber Cow" suspension of the airheads seemed to wake up and told me I would be wise to slow down a tad. :nono

Offline racket

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Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2017, 03:52:02 PM »
For sure, although I'm a big fan of the "free energy" a turbo enjoys off the exhaust rather than a crankshaft shive.

Yeah... but a supercharger just seems more American and muscly. Not like those dignified, refined, and complex little exhaust driven turbo chargers. Anyways (and people who always ask what performance mods you can do to K100, listen up), after you go to forced induction and an MS system, you could probably (with a lot of time, effort, and money) convert it to run methanol. This would make an interesting Bonneville type project
  • Philadelphia, PA
  • 1986 BMW K100

Offline wmax351

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Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2017, 04:15:34 PM »
Advantage of a supercharger is the lack of lag that is present in a turbo, which is what doomed the factory turbo bikes.


Kawasaki has a really cool 2-speed centrifugal supercharger on one of their new bikes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Ninja_H2
  • Ann Arbor, MI
  • 1991 BMW K75 Standard, Refreshed '94 engine
Bikes:
Current:
1991 BMW K75 Standard, Refreshed '94 engine


Past:
'83 BMW R65LS (An R65 with a prototype K Bike Front End)
'75 Honda CB550F
'69 Honda CB175
1999 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 (Last month of the original '55 model)
1973 Triumph Tiger TR7V (5 speed, Right Shift, Disc Brake)
1971 BMW R75/5 in Toaster outfit
1979 Harley Davidson XLS-1000 Sportster Roadster

Offline Arktasian

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  • Posts: 100
Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2017, 04:52:49 PM »
Yeah... but a supercharger just seems more American and muscly. Not like those dignified, refined, and complex little exhaust driven turbo chargers. Anyways (and people who always ask what performance mods you can do to K100, listen up), after you go to forced induction and an MS system, you could probably (with a lot of time, effort, and money) convert it to run methanol. This would make an interesting Bonneville type project

If it counts at all, I run a 50/50 blend of water meth for the cooling of the induction charge when it seems necessary to run higher levels of boost  :riding: (I have it turn on above 7psi). That's a straight injection through ultra fine orificed nozzles however and there are no moving parts to seize up on injectors and such. The solenoid valves are SS and happy with meth running through them.
The other thing - I don't have a lot of money for my projects  :musicboohoo:

Offline Arktasian

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Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2017, 05:02:38 PM »
Advantage of a supercharger is the lack of lag that is present in a turbo, which is what doomed the factory turbo bikes.


Kawasaki has a really cool 2-speed centrifugal supercharger on one of their new bikes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Ninja_H2

The advantage of a well matched turbocharger is that it provides efficient power gain (although the superchargers are climbing in their efficiency and "heating" behaviour) - when properly matched the "Lag Concern" is really not something to worry about. I don't have lag on the RT, in fact it behaves exactly like it did when it was natural, but takes off much more aggressively (as anticipated) if the roll on is more ambitious. This is uniform enough I don't worry about throttle operation in curves etc.
There is a "Twin Turbo" project that came up from the "Boxer Metal" shop - that is a very good example of a system most likely to have horrible lag. The bike looked perfect and artistic, but the turbos were way too large (even to a casual observer on the net) and would most likely take 5 miles on full throttle to wind up, if at all  :nono

Offline Arktasian

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Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2017, 08:56:22 PM »
Point of consideration on the "ABS" system and opinions welcomed.
I am reviewing the bike wiring harness and drawing up a work schematic to aide in removal of various electrical components. I've dropped the "Log the Motronic" plan and will remove it and other items that the MS ECU will control (as creating an msq or program template will be one of the easier aspects). I've heard mixed reviews on the ABS performance, and poor reviews on its robustness and cost per mile operation ratio.
So - looking for feedback on yay/nay before I jump towards removal.

Offline Arktasian

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Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2017, 10:11:06 AM »
Did a site search, lots of posts on the topic.
The ABS will come off.  the wiring harness will reduce substantially with roughly half the high profile components like "Ignition Control" and "Fuel Injection Control" cases being pulled, along with numerous satellite sensors and devices not required. The MS has its own to take their place. So, the ABS module being removed will afford some nice real estate back in the tail section as well.
Besides which, I like to learn the behaviour of and use threshold braking.

Offline Arktasian

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Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2017, 09:15:03 AM »
Not sure I missed something here on Motobricks, but some posts that were on my thread have vanished.
Is Johny inclined to post & then disappear?

Offline Arktasian

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Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2017, 05:05:22 PM »
Seems posts either disappear or get removed

Offline Arktasian

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Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2017, 11:05:56 PM »
So I have continued to tinker on the bike, I've charted the turbo location close enough to put together a material list for plumbing items not already on hand. I needed some 321 stainless tubing (elbows and straight portions in a couple of smaller dia sizes) - 321 is the superior choice for the high heat zones containing alloy additions like titanium. A very reasonable source in California is "AceRace" and package will arrive Wednesday. I've mapped out the charge air cooler (under fuel tank) and oil feed and drain strategies as well small coolant lines to/from the cartridge.

Offline Arktasian

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Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2017, 05:50:45 PM »
I'm seeing other posts surface, some rather old and perhaps interrupted - where fuel/ ignition management is being considered, and in some cases some rather aggressive modifications or grafting of stock parts to gain either a unique project - and/or higher output on the ole brick are mentioned/ attempted.
The mystery surrounding Megasquirt is basically uneccessary. If you go to that site and forums there are endless projects that are successful in all walks of life.  One common question: "Does an MS system get to the point you just ride the bike and not worry or deal with tune or issues, or?"  That answer I would offer, is Yes!   Based on no less challenging of a project than my 83 airhead that started life with Bing Carbs and no turbo of course. In its fully modified format & being somewhat of a horrific sleeper to other modern bikes (or Harleys which I love to hunt), it is a daily ride, been all over this province and major areas of the US with nary an issue for years.
wmax351 has offered a pretty clear explanation of Microsquirt, but the mystic remains (and no doubt fear and uncertainty). I'll speak of Microsquirt, as it is basically the smaller version of Megasquirt with various minor differences etc.
Simply put, it is a complex but highly affordable approach to full management of existing fuel & ignition systems and then a whole lot more (there are many additional items and methods of running it including a host of additional components such as water/meth injection control, boost modulation, idle valve control, sequential ignition/ coil on plug, canbus control, the list would be too long here) - but there is a need to follow the amply provided manual and tech material to be able to establish everything - unless you are already an electronic wizard (most of us including myself are not). This is a big point. If you follow the directions, you can build the kit onto your bike, create an "MSQ" (tune) that is close enough to ride on and finish utilizing logging (or some dyno time). That and it is ridiculously cheap in the grand scheme of things - plus if you wish to cruise your local autowreckers you can pull in/ recycle numerous parts for additional savings that can continue to live a long life.
There are forums over at Mega/ Micro squirt that serve to help people very nicely should an issue or anomally surface. Nuff said  :lets-eat:
I'm playing with the exhaust, thought I'd tack on the performance map of my little Mitsubishi Turbo. This unit will allow the 75, perhaps a 100 to run excellent without lag, without fear of burnouts coming out of corners, quite well rounded behaviour.
Sorry if the map is upside down, I don't have Adobe on the very old home computer and it won't let me invert. If you haven't played with turbo's, you can plot the info on this map into a performance file (RB Racing has several that allow you to imput engine info and determing flow rates, behaviour with the info on the map). If you don't run these numbers and confirm performance ahead of time, you very well may end up with a poorly matched unit and have the undesireables (lag, choke, surge, blah, blah.)
 

Offline racket

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  • Posts: 45
Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2017, 05:54:02 PM »
One big obstacle is that microsquirt is great but most of those systems require a fabricated crank trigger wheel and other components to really make it worth it (and get more horsepower). Otherwise you're just trading in one basic system for another. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • Philadelphia, PA
  • 1986 BMW K100

Offline Arktasian

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  • Posts: 100
Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2017, 06:01:44 PM »
A crank trigger that will provide a proper signal and sync for the MS is an undeniable requirement. There are many, many types of tone wheel & sensor patterns that are supported by the various firmwares and programming. Why would that be such a big deal when people are considering removing an old Motronic from one cc'd engine plus other parts and cobble them onto another engine - all to hopefully gain a properly running engine that has very little in the way of adjustability and correction for know issues?
A tone wheel add on for the K75/100 engine will not be that hard - I haven't built it yet but will provide my drawings and detail here in case anyone is interested. I will use a 36 tooth wheel with one missing, that costs $25us. I like VR sensors and those are all over your auto wreckers or parts stores cheap. Stay tuned.
Guess the point here is, this is not a plug'n play system but equally is rather kindergarten in comparison to modifications and machine work that many offer here on their upgrading and wild ride creations.
Regardless, comments and discussion welcomed.

Offline tagaz

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  • Posts: 6
Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2017, 12:27:18 AM »
i am/will follow this very interesting project
  • Kingman, AZ USA
  • 1985 K 100 RT

Offline Laitch

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  • Posts: 6757
Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2017, 08:25:40 AM »
Guess the point here is, this is not a plug'n play system but equally is rather kindergarten in comparison to modifications and machine work that many offer here on their upgrading and wild ride creations.
Regardless, comments and discussion welcomed.
If it were easier than the many modifications viewed on this site, I suspect it would be done more often here. I'm interested in your progress and outcome as compared with wmax351's experience.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75T 72,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,296.msg53303.html#msg53303

Offline racket

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  • Posts: 45
Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2017, 09:16:30 AM »
I agree with Laitch. Cutting and welding frame pieces is one thing, but setting up an alternative and more modern fuel injection system is a whole different beast. I think the Microsquirt is almost plug and play, but like I said, you'd basically be trading one system for an equal one. The worthwhile improvements come from adding more sensors, creating a crank trigger, getting into the whole alpha-n thing... the list goes on. Basically what I'm saying is it's hard, I've always wanted to do it, and you seem like you're smart enough to put together a great How To guide so we're all rooting for you! If you can make your own system and crank trigger and all the little parts, you could probably sell kits to cafe racer builders. It would also be really funny to see someone on a K100LT with a modern fuel injection roaring down the road with 25+ extra hp.
  • Philadelphia, PA
  • 1986 BMW K100

Offline Arktasian

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  • Posts: 100
Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2017, 10:55:18 AM »
You gentlemen will get the feeling I'm trying to convince others to try out MS  :nono (there may be some truth in that  :yes)
Working with electrical systems & control is a tad different than frame fab or suspension upgrading as an example. However, based on projects I've viewed here I'd say there is a very high level of creative ability to take on "outside the box" tasks and succeed in a dramatic fashion.
MS and a successful upgrade is really no different, where you pay attention to detail most where it counts. The K bikes being fuel injected are much easier candidates than carbureted engines for a conversion, and already have some sensors in place that can be utilized. The big MAF flap could be integrated (MAF is a popular tool interestingly), I've already removed it for alternate air flow strategy - and it will be "Speed Density" fueling rather than Alpha-N (but that's a turbo thing and I need the room taken up by the stock air chamber and filter/flap box). Adding more sensors can be as easy as tapping 3/8fpt or welding scullies, wiring and relays is a matter of being neat and diligent.
So, you might hone in on adding a crank (& in my case cam) trigger, and potential difficulties :curvy-road.  The stock "Twin Hall" assembly on the front of the timing case doesn't provide a signal that MS currently supports. wmax351 had started to design a small version tone wheel & sensor housing, perhaps that looks intimidating to readers? My approach - consider it in bites and calm forward strategy. With all the stock parts removed you have a very nice available spigot with which to mount a very small drive hub, the 36/1 wheel being 4" OD requires a rework for a back plate and cover. Still, I see it in my mind and will post the offspring here in due course once created. I'm not a machinist, spent many years utilizing a drill press, hack saw's and hand files - till recent completion of a resto on a lathe and milling machine (see me now being very  :clap:) I'd still make said parts by hand without those, or get a friend to spin out the little bits if I didn't have a place to work on things. Guess I'm saying it isn't that hard.
Tuning, there are road blocks for sure but again if the bloody manual is read (and re-read) and then actually followed, it seems to all fall into place. Over on the MS forums, there are examples of guys having upfitted an old car over a weekend for example, and had running with a reasonable tune on the next day.
All rather speculative I'm sure you're all thinking till some proof hits these pages - I agree on that so as previously mentioned, stay tuned. But enjoying the discussion.

Offline Arktasian

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Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #69 on: July 11, 2017, 12:16:36 PM »
Post removed by Arktasian

 

Offline Arktasian

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Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #70 on: July 27, 2017, 09:08:44 AM »
A modicum of progress, here is the exhaust feed manifold. Connects onto the stock 3 into 1 manifold and leads up into zone previously occupied by battery (which will be an AGM residing in now vacant tail section compartment as all previous ecu's removed.)
Except for the turbine mount flange which is 316ss, I've used 321ss which has titanium content and handles increased exhaust stream heat loads very well. We'll see how the stock 3/1 section stands up as although it has no magnetism which would suggest food grade 316 or better I wouldn't be surprised if its closer to 309. The diameter shrinks on the last run as you can see, ensuring the velocity remains peak entering the turbine. This will be close quarters to the rear tire and clutch release arm, so I'll be shielding with a ceramic shaped blanket. Should have some proper photos to post up in due course as it is all in place.

Offline Arktasian

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Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #71 on: August 06, 2017, 11:30:49 AM »
Coolant adaptor below.
 
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Offline Arktasian

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Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2017, 10:36:04 AM »
Sketch added back in  :dunno2:

Offline Arktasian

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Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #73 on: September 01, 2017, 09:04:54 PM »
Removed by Arktasian
 

Offline Arktasian

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Re: 95 K75 on Mod Table
« Reply #74 on: September 10, 2017, 09:48:18 PM »
Removed by Arktasian

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