Author Topic: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off  (Read 24083 times)

Offline KJM00

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Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« on: March 08, 2017, 09:03:14 PM »
Ive recently intermittently had issues with my bike starting after being ran and then turning the bike off and trying to start it with the engine warm.  So I had no issue at all for days, went on a 40 mile ride Zero issues yesterday, but then today my bike died every few blocks...Like didn't matter if I was slamming the throttle or not, it just would die and wouldn't start for five minutes. The battery connections are solid and a brand new battery and the fuel line is delivering very well I made sure by checking the like after loosening it, it would gush.  And a full tank of gas with brand new fuel lines.  I also did replace the breather long tube and made sure neither had folds or were clogged at any point. Then I got home and let it run and it idled no problem for ten minutes straight, even after holding the gas at like 4k rpm for like 2 minutes straight it just never died. I'm going to go in circles around the block and see if the issue pops back up later this evening.  But I have no clue, maybe something moving back and forth in the filter and deciding when to clog it? Or possibly a failing injector or pump? Fuel sensor maybe? (Sometimes at like one gallon deep it tells me my fuels low for a few miles) Maybe the CDI? I'm stumped and not sure to begin, any suggestions? Really appreciate any input. When the bike dies it acts like it's starving for gas, rather than an electrical issue so I don't suspect electrical gremlins
  • Lincoln, Nebraska
  • K75S 1993 blue and 2001 Kawasaki KL-250G SS

Offline KJM00

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2017, 09:30:53 PM »
The electrical plug? I made sure it was seated well.
  • Lincoln, Nebraska
  • K75S 1993 blue and 2001 Kawasaki KL-250G SS

Offline wally.fisher

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2017, 11:43:57 PM »
The electrical plug? I made sure it was seated well.
Side stand switch?


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Offline Laitch

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2017, 11:45:55 PM »
The electrical plug? I made sure it was seated well.
But I have no clue, maybe something moving back and forth in the filter and deciding when to clog it? Or possibly a failing injector or pump?  . . . the filter and deciding . . .  a failing injector or pump?
Could be any of those or none of them. An orderly approach is needed. There's this diagnostic flow chart. Your bike doesn't differ too much from a K100 regarding its various systems so this procedure should help. Look all the way through it to understand how things work. If you've looked at it once take another look then start at square one.

But first:

On a bike with a broken odometer like yours had—or an old bike with no maintenance history—replacing the fuel filter along with those old hoses is good practice. Also, inspecting, cleaning or replacing the air filter is essential. It doesn't seem like you've done that either. Are the spark plugs wet or sooty after starting attempts?

You should check your electrical grounds. the battery ground is on the transmission case left side. Be certain it is clean and tight. There is a ground on the frame too. Check the diagnostic pages.

Then—because you've already been there—open that 4-pin plug under the  right side of the tank again, clean its connections with electronic cleaner then be sure that the pins are making firm contact with their terminals—not just that the two halves of the connection are tight.

Under the tool box beneath the seat is the fuel injection control box. Its plug is held in place by a latch that is accessed from an opening in the tool box. If you can disconnect that plug by pulling on its right side without moving the latch, that could be your problem, too. That plug should be disconnected, its terminals cleaned and then it should be firmly connected so its latch clicks it in place.

Fuse 6 should be checked. That's the fuel pump fuse. Is it getting power?

The symptom you are describing is one of the most common found here. Its various solutions are discussed in many threads here.

Did you ever fix the seat latch problem?

If you don't have a rider's manual, one is attached here that will work for your bike even though it's slightly newer. It will show you the access to the fuel injector control plug mentioned above. Look in the Technical Library Card Catalog here for other resources.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.
https://tinyurl.com/RillRider

Offline Laitch

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2017, 11:47:44 PM »
Side stand switch?
The K75 doesn't use a side stand switch as a safety mechanism. It uses mechanical linkage to the clutch lever that retracts the side stand before starting.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.
https://tinyurl.com/RillRider

Offline wally.fisher

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2017, 11:55:13 PM »
The K75 doesn't use a side stand switch as a safety mechanism. It uses mechanical linkage to the clutch lever that retracts the side stand before starting.
You're right, it's on the 4 valve bikes. Apologise.

It may be the HES causing problems, they do when temperatures increase.


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Offline Laitch

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2017, 11:59:31 PM »
It may be the HES causing problems, they do when temperatures increase.
It could be. That's why an orderly diagnostic approach is necessary and that is the purpose of using the troubleshooting chart and its accompanying pages.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.
https://tinyurl.com/RillRider

Offline KJM00

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2017, 12:08:47 AM »
Very much appreciate the information guys, and especially Laitch.  On the Seat Latch, no I have not procured a used Lock yet.  However I followed Johnny's Queue and cleaned the connectors and reconnected the 4-pin, took it for a 15 mile test ride with zero issues, then turned the bike off and on 5 times in a row, with no issue.  I'm not implying it's fixed, because as I've said the issue has been very inconsistent, so I will keep poking the bike the next day or so and if issues still persists.  (which I'm entirely expecting)  I'm going to hit it in the fashion you suggested and will letcha' guys know.  The Latch thing I can't say I'll get to anytime soon, still trying to decide if I'm just going to live with it, but 150 miles later the odometer's still going strong.   Will report back with an update on Starting issues. 
  • Lincoln, Nebraska
  • K75S 1993 blue and 2001 Kawasaki KL-250G SS

Offline Laitch

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2017, 12:20:40 AM »
so I will keep poking the bike the next day or so and if issues still persists.  (which I'm entirely expecting)
Raise your expectations while you are doing maintenance. It could be more satisfying—for a while anyway. :giggles 
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.
https://tinyurl.com/RillRider

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2017, 02:49:31 PM »
So it was the tank connector? 

If problem persists next stop is the ignition switch.  I had similar problems with both.  Ignition switch is a weak design that does not put a lot of force into making the connection between switch contacts.  Dirt and corrosion combined with engine vibration can make for an intermittent operation. 

Perhaps you may want to do a preemptive visit to it:

http://www.eilenberger.net/K75S/IgnitionSwitch/

http://technik.flyingbrick.de/images/6/6f/61_zuendschloss.pdf
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline KJM00

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2017, 03:15:36 AM »
I'm hoping it was the Tank-Connector, I'm a few tests in without issue, but as I said before the issue was REALLY inconsistent leading up to this resolution, so I'm not yet deeming it resolved, but for now it seems momentarily gone?  :dunno2:   Thanks for the extra info though!
  • Lincoln, Nebraska
  • K75S 1993 blue and 2001 Kawasaki KL-250G SS

Offline KJM00

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2017, 08:47:04 PM »
So incredibly strange issue.  After putting about 150 miles on the bike since this issue popped up I have one particular strange as hell issue.  Twice now, when I fill my motorcycle up with gas at a gas station it wont start for 15-30 minutes... I have ZERO riding issues, no problem riding for an hour turning bike off and right back on and im going at any speed, without issue.  And both times i've filled up with gas within the last three weeks, each time I couldn't start my bike for at least 15 minutes after fueling up.  The bike hasn't cut off, or had ANY problems, no choking at high RPMs,no issues starting, or really performing what-so-ever except after fueling up.  I know I may need to hit the problem-solving hierarchy in proper order, but this has be baffled in general.
  • Lincoln, Nebraska
  • K75S 1993 blue and 2001 Kawasaki KL-250G SS

Offline Laitch

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2017, 08:58:46 PM »
So incredibly strange issue.  After putting about 150 miles on the bike since this issue popped up I have one particular strange as hell issue.  Twice now, when I fill my motorcycle up with gas at a gas station it wont start for 15-30 minutes...
Your tank vent or vent hose located beneath the tank might be clogged. Did you try opening the cap then starting it? That won't cure it but will provide something to occupy the time between startups. :giggles
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.
https://tinyurl.com/RillRider

Offline KJM00

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2017, 09:17:29 PM »
I'll give it a go, and see guess I gotta try at next fill up :hehehe
  • Lincoln, Nebraska
  • K75S 1993 blue and 2001 Kawasaki KL-250G SS

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2017, 10:22:58 PM »
It sounds a bit to me like some sort of a temporary vapor lock. I'm not sure how that can happen when you have a pump capable of 60+ psi.  But here are some tests I would run:

Scenario #1:  What happens if you open up the tank after riding 15 or more miles, leave it open for a couple minutes without putting any gas in it, close it and try to start the engine?

Scenario #2:  What happens if before going out for a ride you open the tank when the bike is cold, fill the tank with at least 2 gallons of gas from a can, close the tank and try to start the engine?

Scenario #3:  What happens if you ride 15 or more miles, stop for 4 minutes without opening the tank and try to start the engine?
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline KJM00

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2017, 10:37:02 PM »
Will try all and report back.
  • Lincoln, Nebraska
  • K75S 1993 blue and 2001 Kawasaki KL-250G SS

Offline KJM00

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2017, 08:32:29 PM »
So I tried all of the things mentioned with filling gas before and after trip and the issue never replicated.  And then today it just wouldn't start at all. I checked my spark plugs they are fairly good looking and are within proper size 0.024-.028 in I believe. And three giving good spark. Fuel tank is full, compression appears to be there, full charged battery and currently on trickle charger. So full tank, fuel tank plug properly connected, spark plugs aren't covered in soot and are all giving a proper spark.  But no start.  I suspect fuel pump/or dirty fuel filter or failing ecm/cdi. Both are a bit out of my comfort zone to diagnose/fix.  But any suggestions regarding this one? Much appreciated.
  • Lincoln, Nebraska
  • K75S 1993 blue and 2001 Kawasaki KL-250G SS

Offline Laitch

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2017, 09:11:18 PM »
But any suggestions regarding this one? Much appreciated.
Don't try to fix this by replacing parts one after the other. If no start is typed in the search box on the Home page, you'll cringe at the number of reasons why these bikes won't start. Your bike's symptom is not unusual.

You've been given several suggestions in this thread.  One was being certain the tank vent was clear. That is one of the vents that protrudes from beneath the rear of the tank. Another was checking and cleaning the negative battery grounds and the frame grounds. Those are uncomplicated tasks and all can have an effect on starting. Have you done those? Gryph gave a link for cleaning the ignition switch. You can have spark then not have spark, fuel then not have fuel from intermittent electrical connections. Be certain the main plug under the seat is firmly latched. If you can pull it out by grasping its right side, it isn't latched correctly.

It takes an orderly approach and thinking that is uncluttered by supposition. Do those tasks then go from there. If you can't find information, ask for it. Somebody will usually take up the cause.

You fixed your odometer. You can deal with this.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.
https://tinyurl.com/RillRider

Offline KJM00

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2017, 09:26:28 PM »
Appreciate the vote of confidence and help:). Cleaned the negative and the vent is both new and completely unobstructed so I suppose next stop is ignition switch.  I'm trying to maintain a positive state of mind about the whole ordeal
  • Lincoln, Nebraska
  • K75S 1993 blue and 2001 Kawasaki KL-250G SS

Offline KJM00

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2017, 02:18:11 AM »
Alright.  So here's where were at. 
1) Took apart ignition switch, cleaned it, it's immaculate.  Exactly the same situation
2) Checked all Fuses, all are there and not blown.  Cleaned ground/negative Electrical Connection on battery.
I've only owned this bike for Less than two months and what I've done so far is: Fixed odometer, changed oil/filter, checked spark plugs, replaced fuel line to rail and breather hose, did Forks/Fork Oil/Seals.  Made sure Air Filter was clean, fitted some heated grips to the bike and ran the electricals under the gas tank, this was when i replaced the line and breather hose and where i suspected the fuel tank plug was the issue.  ([The reason I bring this up, is so people have an idea where I've delved and may have created problems for myself])  I took my time doing all of this, and after all of the work I did the bike was working fine, save for the intermittent failures that have been on-going for about a month or so.
At this point I'm leaning even harder on it being the fuel pump.  I concluded the reasoning because It's been sporadic and I suspect it's been dying over time.  So I noticed this about a month back, because I had a case of Vapor lock, that I was able to resolve.  After the vapor lock then I noticed a lower fuel mileage, (I haven't owned the bike long but I was getting 30-35miles to the gallon.)  Then after i noticed that my bike was having sporadic shut offs, to which i cleaned and re-seated the Tank plug and my issues went away for about two weeks, (100 Miles).  After that more issues popped up, I replaced the main fuel line and the air breathing hose well making 100% sure the breather hose was not being blocked and could provide good breathabillity and that the fuel hose was properly mounted.  So I started proper troubleshooting for the fuel pump.
1) Not a single Fuse is blown and all look wonderful.
2) I disconnected the fuel line from the rail, let it drain out properly, once it was drained, I turned the ignition and pressed the Ignition button and held it for a few seconds.  (I read that-that should drip some fuel at minimum)
3) I removed the Tank Latch and turned my bike on and off constantly.  ( I saw a video with a Gas Filter replacement and every time the guy turned his ignition on you could hear a WRRRRRRRRR from the fuel pump engaging before he even started the engine.((It should be noted his was a RT, but  I doubt that makes a difference here.))) After testing this a few times my fuel pump was absolutely 100% silent, not a sound, no WRRRR, no sound of engaging, or anything, just absent from engaging. 
I'm right at the point now where I'm pretty sure I need to buy a new Fuel Pump, that will set me back about $80 and I'm not an incredibly rich man, so I don't want to pull the trigger on this till' I'm at least mostly sure.  I may have to ask some local BMW Bike Mechanics what they think; but this as far as I could come on my problems.  It's even harder for me to properly diagnose because this is a pressurized fuel injection system and I've only ever worked on carbureted bikes. 
At this point if it's not the pump and I have no idea what i'm talking about it's GOT to be the Fuel injectors which i highly doubt, the ECM failing(god I hope not), a clogged Fuel filter which I highly doubt.
  • Lincoln, Nebraska
  • K75S 1993 blue and 2001 Kawasaki KL-250G SS

Online Martin

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2017, 03:22:08 AM »
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Offline Filmcamera

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2017, 06:38:45 AM »
Try taking the pump out of the tank and connecting to a 12V source directly.  If it runs then the pump is fine it is the other connections that have the issue. 
  • San Jose, Costa Rica
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Offline Laitch

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2017, 07:19:16 AM »
At this point if it's not the pump and I have no idea what i'm talking about it's GOT to be the Fuel injectors which i highly doubt, the ECM failing(god I hope not), a clogged Fuel filter which I highly doubt.
If—as you say—you have no idea what you are talking about, then action instead of talk is the order of the day. You're in action; keep it up.

Supposition is pointless. It is best to track symptoms to their sources rather than diagnose their causes extemporaneously. A working, used ignition control unit—even a used fuel injection control unit—could cost less than a new pump and take much less time to install. It depends upon what is out in the marketplace. Your pump might be broken, it might not be getting current because its connector isn't fitting tightly or current might not be reaching it from the fuel sender because wires are damaged. If the pump is not running, it might be clogged. As has been suggested by Filmcamera, it can be removed then current used to determine its condition. The pump might not be the problem at all. One step at a time.

You are approaching this task correctly—checking and cleaning easily-accessed components. Did you inspect or clean the battery negative ground and the frame grounds? You should get a multi-meter and school yourself in its function. Your bike's engine is managed electronically and you can learn how the system's components interact from Bert Vogel's troubleshooting pages. The troubleshooting chart at the link in one of the posts in this thread depends in large part on the ability to assess electrical current.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.
https://tinyurl.com/RillRider

Offline Laitch

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2017, 07:29:04 AM »
The electrical plug? I made sure it was seated well.
Recently there was an example of the 4-pin plug under the tank being tightly connected but its pins were loosely fitting into their sockets. When they were twisted slightly so they made tighter contact, the pump started functioning.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.
https://tinyurl.com/RillRider

Offline KJM00

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Re: Consistent and inconsistently bike shutting off
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2017, 04:34:45 PM »
So I've used a very strong air compressor to blow out the plug and twist the wires in a fashion over and over and over and making sure all four pins line up and go into the 4-pin connector.  the Only thing i haven't done is use an electrical cleaner on the plug, because I currently do no have one.  See in my mind the plug made entire sense when i was having sporadic shut off issues, however i don't hear my pump at all now, no matter how i seat the plug, no sounds.  Also on-top of that, i had a case vapor lock and low mileage BEFORE i even messed with the 4pin plug.  I'll mess with it a little more here, and see here shortly if i can pick up an electrical cleaner as well.  Next step I think here in the next few days when I have some time I'm going to have to dismount my fuel pump and test it independently.
  • Lincoln, Nebraska
  • K75S 1993 blue and 2001 Kawasaki KL-250G SS

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