Author Topic: Help to trouble shoot no start  (Read 6347 times)

Offline 3DdesignsK75S

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Help to trouble shoot no start
« on: April 03, 2015, 03:12:48 PM »
I have a 91 75s that I'm working on, and the starter doesn't turn over at all. The battery I have hooked up at the moment has only 12Ah and 200cca, and you can hear the fuel pump go, and a click in the relay box. Also there is juice at the starter, but it does not even try to move.

I am thinking it's most likely the contacts in the starter, or is it possible that the capacity of this battery is simply not enough, or could it be the relay???

We also don't have any lights hooked up, and not sure if that could effect anything.

Thanks for all your tips
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  • 03 Triumph Tiger, 79 Yamaha XS1100F (NOS barn find), 92 K75S (naked cafe fighter conversion in progress)

Offline Inge K.

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2015, 03:34:19 PM »
I would guess worn starter brush(es), select 2nd or 3rd gear and push the bike rearwards 0,5 - 1,0 meter.
The try the starter again.
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Offline 3DdesignsK75S

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2015, 05:08:05 PM »
That didn't work.
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  • 03 Triumph Tiger, 79 Yamaha XS1100F (NOS barn find), 92 K75S (naked cafe fighter conversion in progress)

Offline Inge K.

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2015, 05:56:26 PM »
Is it a known good battery? Is the connection to ground good? How much does the voltage drop?

Try with a jumper cable direct from the battery and just touch the starter terminal.
You could also try with jumper cables and a different battery...then connect the negative to the bolt
between the frame and gearbox.

Then you know if you have to check the starter or the battery and the connections between.
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Offline 3DdesignsK75S

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2015, 06:04:03 PM »
Yes it's a new battery, but smaller.
I don't think the voltage drops, non of the dash lights dim, but we didn't measure.
On my way now to get a different battery.

Thanks for the tips
  • San Diego
  • 03 Triumph Tiger, 79 Yamaha XS1100F (NOS barn find), 92 K75S (naked cafe fighter conversion in progress)

Offline 3DdesignsK75S

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2015, 11:29:04 PM »
Got the starter turning and the bike running by disconnecting the smaller wire from the overload relay that goes to the starter.   Before this, we had the relays swapped but this made no difference, the starter did not engage. What could cause this?
  • San Diego
  • 03 Triumph Tiger, 79 Yamaha XS1100F (NOS barn find), 92 K75S (naked cafe fighter conversion in progress)

Offline Inge K.

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2015, 04:02:32 AM »
Got the starter turning and the bike running by disconnecting the smaller wire from the overload relay that goes to the starter.
This shouldn't normaly make any difference.......I would Guess that it have been a bad contact at the terminal,
and by undoing and retighten the nut have removed a light oxid layer.


Before this, we had the relays swapped but this made no difference, the starter did not engage. What could cause this?
You did swap which relays?
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Offline 3DdesignsK75S

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2015, 01:08:15 PM »
I guess what I need to find out what exactly the reason is that by removing the cable it gets the starter working and how to fix that.

There appear to be 3 relays that are the same that we swapped around, non of which made a difference. Then they were put back in their original locations and removed the small cable. That's when the bike started. I should add that the headlight does not come on either, and we have no other lights attached at the moment (not sure if that makes a difference).
  • San Diego
  • 03 Triumph Tiger, 79 Yamaha XS1100F (NOS barn find), 92 K75S (naked cafe fighter conversion in progress)

Offline Scott_

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2015, 03:11:34 PM »
Sounds like you disconnected the 'ground' line from the load shed relay to me.
This relay powers the headlight, tail-light, and other load not needed to start the bike. When the starter is powered this relay will 'de-energize' to allow all possible battery power to be available to turn the starter, then when the starter is done turning, this relay is 're-energized' again to turn on the accessories.
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1997 K1100LT 0302488
1995 K1100LT 0302044
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Offline rbm

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2015, 03:32:30 PM »
Referring to this diagram,



Was it the load shed, horn and fuel injection relays that you swapped around?  If you swapped the FI relay with any of the others, there should have been a difference; the FI relay has two 87 pins, the others only one.  The horn and load shed relays are similar.

Also, from what relay did you "remove the small cable"?
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Toronto, Ontario

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Offline 3DdesignsK75S

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Was: Help to trouble shoot no start NOW: Battery
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2015, 03:37:06 PM »
Here is the newest. Tried a battery with more cranking power and now everything seems to be in order. At the end the conclusion is that unless there is enough juice, the starter will not fire. Again, I tried a new 200cca 12Ah battery which did not work. The bigger one was a 310cca, worked like a charm.

Which brings me to the other point I need to find the smallest battery that will still start this thing??
  • San Diego
  • 03 Triumph Tiger, 79 Yamaha XS1100F (NOS barn find), 92 K75S (naked cafe fighter conversion in progress)

Offline Scott_

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2015, 09:54:48 PM »
I have a 20ah battery in both of my 1100's, and have no trouble starting. But I can't for sure if it would physically fit in your 75.
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Ride safe.


1997 K1100LT 0302488
1995 K1100LT 0302044
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb

Offline 3DdesignsK75S

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2015, 10:06:16 PM »
I think the CCA number might actually be more important the the Ah number. How many cca's is your battery? I bet it's at least 300 or more.
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  • 03 Triumph Tiger, 79 Yamaha XS1100F (NOS barn find), 92 K75S (naked cafe fighter conversion in progress)

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2015, 10:36:39 PM »
I think I have seen batteries for the K75 that have as little as 18AH and 250cca. I think this is the bare minimum that will start a K75.

If you are looking for a small battery, check out AGM and Lithium.   The lithium is about 2.5 to 3 times the cost of a standard battery right now, and has the risk of a lithium fire.  The AGM batteries are a bit bigger but smaller than wet cell lead acid.  They are about the same price.  I have this one on my K75RT and it has started my bike reliably every time for year now, even in the winter at temperatures well below freezing.

http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/sYT51913-22.html

Warning: A lot of people around here who haven't used them will pooh-pooh these batteries, but I have two of them on my bikes and so far they have worked really well. 

Disclaimer, my bikes are well maintained and start readily so the starter load on the battery is not heavy.  Don't know how long they will spin an engine that doesn't want to start so be aware that YMMV.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '94 K75RT Mystic Red, '91K100RS White/Blue, '89 K100RS Special edition White/Blue
Current:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'91 K100RS "Moby Brick Too
'89 K100RS SE

Offline 3DdesignsK75S

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2015, 10:41:58 PM »
Thanks for the info. I will check out that battery. I also read a lot of the giant thread about the batteries on advrider forum, and I think I am going to stick with the AGM. I think I can probably go down with the Ah number but have to keep the CCA up at 250-ish
  • San Diego
  • 03 Triumph Tiger, 79 Yamaha XS1100F (NOS barn find), 92 K75S (naked cafe fighter conversion in progress)

Offline Scott_

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2015, 10:00:28 AM »
I think the CCA number might actually be more important the the Ah number. How many cca's is your battery? I bet it's at least 300 or more.

Westco 12v20p  20ah 275cca
Height: 6.5 Inches / 165 mm
Length: 7 Inches / 178 mm
Width: 3 Inches / 76 mm

By chance do you have a means to measure the cranking current of the starter when it is turning?
  • My Garage
Ride safe.


1997 K1100LT 0302488
1995 K1100LT 0302044
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb

Offline johnny

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2015, 11:04:50 AM »
when i was west coast i gotts my batteries outta corona ca... shipped same day...had the next with standard shipping...

west coast batteries...

i also found bonerbeemyard to have good deals on westco and delivered same week...

have had good luck with both odyssey and westco... have one of each right now... 100% positive...

j o
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Offline 3DdesignsK75S

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2015, 12:33:06 PM »
I know about both of those batteries but they are too tall for how I want to use them. I want to lay it down, so the hight is an issue, because it would stick in too far towards the tire. I found a Scropion battery that might work but I wonder if it's strong enough. 260cca but only 12Ah. http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/hYTX14H.html

Or would the Odyssey PC545 crank it? Again the problem is that it appears unless there is sufficient ampage, the load dump relay will not engage the battery.
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/batteries.htm
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  • 03 Triumph Tiger, 79 Yamaha XS1100F (NOS barn find), 92 K75S (naked cafe fighter conversion in progress)

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2015, 01:24:55 PM »
The battery specs describe two different things about the battery.

CCA(Cold Cranking Amps) describes how much current and thus, power, the battery can put out at one time.  This is a function of two design factors, the surface area of the plates, and the resistance of the structures that connect the plates electrically.

Amp Hours is a function of how much lead is used in the battery.  More lead, heavier battery and more amp hours.

Low amp hours and high CCA is possible.  It just means that you won't get them for as long as a battery that has more amp hours.  The difference is going to be proportional to the difference in amp hour capacity.  That is, a 20amp hour battery with 200CCA will crank the engine for about 80% as long as a 25amphour battery with 200CCA.

The typical battery putting out 250 CCA starting an engine that starts in 1 second of cranking will consume 1/3600 of the battery capacity to start, or about 0.07amp hours(that's hardly any).  You should be able to get about 20+ seconds of cranking from a 20amp hour battery before the voltage drops to where the CCA can't be delivered.  A 30 amp hour battery should be able to provide an additional 10 seconds of cranking before it won't continue.

Bottom line is that as long as your engine starts easily the amp hours of the battery is not that important.  However, if you like to stand around with the lights on before you decide to start your engine The bigger battery will be better. 

One advantage of the bigger battery is that as batteries age, they will lose some of their capacity.  A smaller capacity battery will become unusable sooner than a larger one.  Good maintenance practices will prevent loss and a well maintained battery will outlive a neglected battery of higher capacity.  The most important factor for maintenance is to keep it fully charged and plates submerged in electrolyte.  Every premature battery death I have seen in my line of work has been directly caused by failure to keep the battery charged when not in use for long periods.  GET A BATTERY TENDER AND USE IT!!!  Even the cheap ones will extend the life of your battery if used regularly.  Just don't leave a cheap one connected for more than 1 or 2 days.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '94 K75RT Mystic Red, '91K100RS White/Blue, '89 K100RS Special edition White/Blue
Current:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'91 K100RS "Moby Brick Too
'89 K100RS SE

Offline 3DdesignsK75S

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2015, 01:35:24 PM »
Thanks so much. Great explanation. Unfortunately we still don't know what the magic number is. Since my 200cca 12Ah (from my Tiger) new battery did not work. so just by going up in cca to 250 is going to do the trick?
  • San Diego
  • 03 Triumph Tiger, 79 Yamaha XS1100F (NOS barn find), 92 K75S (naked cafe fighter conversion in progress)

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2015, 01:48:49 PM »
Here's a data point for you.  1994 K75RT 60,000 miles. 10w50oil. Temperatures from 15 to 90 degrees F.

4 month winter layover with weekly starts and about a minute or two of run time.  Monthly use of cheap battery tender. 

Been starting with no problems for1 year 8,500 miles of daily commuter use with a 22AH 255CCA AGM battery. 
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '94 K75RT Mystic Red, '91K100RS White/Blue, '89 K100RS Special edition White/Blue
Current:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'91 K100RS "Moby Brick Too
'89 K100RS SE

Offline 3DdesignsK75S

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2015, 01:58:02 PM »
Great Thanks.

What is your opinion in terms of choosing between those two batteries I linked up above. The Scorpion YTX14H and the Odessy PC545. Obviously the Odessy is a better quality battery which is reflected in the price, but how about in terms of performance based on their available data?
  • San Diego
  • 03 Triumph Tiger, 79 Yamaha XS1100F (NOS barn find), 92 K75S (naked cafe fighter conversion in progress)

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2015, 02:05:34 PM »
More CCA than my battery.  Sandy Eggo, probably never have to kick an engine at a temperature below 50 degrees.  For $74 I'd give it a try if it's the size you need.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '94 K75RT Mystic Red, '91K100RS White/Blue, '89 K100RS Special edition White/Blue
Current:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'91 K100RS "Moby Brick Too
'89 K100RS SE

Offline 3DdesignsK75S

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Re: Help to trouble shoot no start
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2015, 02:11:43 PM »
I definitely don't need to worry about temperatures. OK great. Thanks again!
  • San Diego
  • 03 Triumph Tiger, 79 Yamaha XS1100F (NOS barn find), 92 K75S (naked cafe fighter conversion in progress)

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