Author Topic: 86 k75 with sprag clutch issue, need to start it to fix it. Suggestions request  (Read 13039 times)

Offline filmhog

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Will fix gas cap orientation today.
  • Reno, NV
  • 86 K75 Series K569 (4/86), former 89 k75, 2003 R1150rtP, Honda ST1100 '93, Harley Ultra Classic '89 Keith Black engine,'98 Triumph 1200.
Jan S.

Offline SDCR john

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Nice find. What color are you planning to paint it?
Volador, thanks.  I was going to install a radio so I'll try to figure out which is what.
As I am asking these questions, I though I'd share what Im working on.  This 86 was on Craigslist. 52k miles  It was stupid cheap....the former owner just gave up when he heard sprag clutch and the BMW dealer hit him with a quote $$$.
I was going to cafe racer it, but when I did the accounting of parts it was basically all there.  25 years ago, I remember those Pichler Uni 4 fairing were very expensive.  It needs some body work, but that's easy and have the proper paint waiting to be sprayed.  Great paint shop here in Reno.  I was going to pull the package rack but I remember those being expensive in the day.  Anyway thought you guys would like a photo.

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I'll put a brake question in the next post.
1994 BMW K75S Dakar Yellow #0154446
1983 Moto Guzzi 850 Le Mans
2000 BMW R1100 RS
Bucks County Pa.

Offline SDCR john

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You nailed it, these were my main concerns.

.......

The breather hose symptoms are hair loss, explosive anxiety and social discomfort if you aren't aware of the hose.....
1994 BMW K75S Dakar Yellow #0154446
1983 Moto Guzzi 850 Le Mans
2000 BMW R1100 RS
Bucks County Pa.

Offline filmhog

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Hello John,
Im going to paint it Factory with Paint code 616, the blue you see on the front fairing, fender and rear body section.
  • Reno, NV
  • 86 K75 Series K569 (4/86), former 89 k75, 2003 R1150rtP, Honda ST1100 '93, Harley Ultra Classic '89 Keith Black engine,'98 Triumph 1200.
Jan S.

Offline SDCR john

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Nice, should look good with that rare Pichler. Hope you are able o fix that Sprag clutch issue. From what I have read, it could be prohibitively expensive, if it has to be repaired.
1994 BMW K75S Dakar Yellow #0154446
1983 Moto Guzzi 850 Le Mans
2000 BMW R1100 RS
Bucks County Pa.

Offline daveson

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...what are the symptoms/ issues that would be exhibited from a bad Breather hose?


Symptoms: It is easy to forget about symptoms you have read on the net, especially after reading a hundred other problems. Remove one end of the hose from your bike and see how it goes, and you will remember that for years.

Issues: Unmetered air will be entering the system.
  • Victoria, Australia
  • Current;'85 K100RT~100,000km; four other bricks. Past; 1500 Vulcan, V Star 650, KLX 250(dirt bike) TT250(dirt bike)

Offline filmhog

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Greetings to the group.  Im going to pursue the hole drilling method of sprag repair.  Please, how do you remove the  airbox base?  When I search for this in this forum and on the net, the results are for people that want to put a k&n filter on not just remove the airbox base.  Is there a better search parameters to use?  At the same time I will replace the oil breather hose.
  • Reno, NV
  • 86 K75 Series K569 (4/86), former 89 k75, 2003 R1150rtP, Honda ST1100 '93, Harley Ultra Classic '89 Keith Black engine,'98 Triumph 1200.
Jan S.

Offline Martin

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To remove the air box base it is possible to get your hand (large and gorilla sized hands need not apply) in there once the air cleaner element has been removed. The base is held in by two Allen bolts which can be removed. Once the bolts have been removed it takes a bit of wangling and wrangling to get the base to come out. A slight bit of force is acceptable. The hard bit is getting it back in as there are two large flat washers that go under the base and the two Allen bolts go through them. I have found that it is much easier to glue them in place to the bottom of the base rather than trying to line them up.

 If you need to remove the top part of the airbox I've found it easier to remove the tank and use a  long screw driver to undo the AFM hose. Getting the hose back on can be done but is time consuming as there is not much room.. Removing the radiator would probably make it easier. If you know someone  mechanically competent with small hands that can be recruited all the better.
Regards Martin.
  • North Lakes Queensland Australia
  • 1992 K75s Hybrid, Lefaux, Vespa V twin.

Offline Chaos

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  • Mars needs women!
parts fiches sometimes help
  • sw ohio
1987 K75S    VIN 0231
Original owner, Original litter
200,000 miles (plus or minus) and 5 paint jobs
sold 6/23
2023 Ural 2WD sidecar (BMW's bastard step child)

Offline Martin

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Thanks Chaos, orientating the jubilee clamp #10 so it accessible from above will make life easier in the future. Part # 4 & 5 are a large flat washer on mine which I temporarily glued in place to stop them moving on assembly.
Regards Martin.
  • North Lakes Queensland Australia
  • 1992 K75s Hybrid, Lefaux, Vespa V twin.

Offline filmhog

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Thanks Chaos.  That is what I needed to know.  Im with you on gluing the washers in place.
  • Reno, NV
  • 86 K75 Series K569 (4/86), former 89 k75, 2003 R1150rtP, Honda ST1100 '93, Harley Ultra Classic '89 Keith Black engine,'98 Triumph 1200.
Jan S.

Offline filmhog

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A little update.  Today I removed the crank case cover and found those oiling holes on the sprag.  I rotated the motor and counted 3? I think.  I applied a generous amount of carb cleaner into each hole.  I also put some WD40 in one hole.  I don't know why, just did.  Buttoned it up and tried it.  Sprag still sticking so just starter turned.  while down there I decided to drain the oil and get the carb cleaner out of the motor.  I'm going to fill it with wal mart synthetic and a clean filter just till I can get it fired up and hopefully the sprag pickles in the carb cleaner and works.  If it does not work, I will shoot it again from the crankcase cover.  Changing oil is no big deal for me, just want to make sure the engine doesn't run with carb cleaner.  Also am putting in CD2.  Remember I pushed started this and it ran great for several minutes then quit.  Probably from a low battery.  I have not been able to push start again.  Am trying to fix sprag so as others here have said it will start the way its supposed to. 
Any thoughts or corrections?  Using the right stuff?  Im going to get some seafoam spray to use next time as it is better with the oil I think.
Please thoughts and comments.  Thanks to the group.
  • Reno, NV
  • 86 K75 Series K569 (4/86), former 89 k75, 2003 R1150rtP, Honda ST1100 '93, Harley Ultra Classic '89 Keith Black engine,'98 Triumph 1200.
Jan S.

Offline Martin

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Running the engine on a high detergent diesel oil will get the sprag working again. Some owners run it for around 1000 miles other run it all the time. I've now opened the oil can of worms.
Regards Martin.
  • North Lakes Queensland Australia
  • 1992 K75s Hybrid, Lefaux, Vespa V twin.

Offline johnny

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  • Whacking...n...Chopping Sliding...n...High Siding
greetings...

after seeing what a bottle of marvel mystery oil did paired with cheap farm stoar high deterg oil prior to new filter and mobil 1...

im gonna stick with that snake oil... ima believer...

j o
  • :johnny i parks my 96 eleven hundert rs motobrick in dodge county cheezconsin  :johnny

Offline Laitch

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I also put some WD40 in one hole.  I don't know why, just did.   
Any thoughts or corrections? 
When you do something, know why you're doing it and be able to explain why. Doing things without reason can lead to unpleasant consequences and an overall appearance of dimwittedness that doesn't encourage the collaboration of others.

I think you're taking the right approach by not drilling into the case.
I'd clean the plugs, put fresh fuel into the tank, add Rislone Motor Flush to the oil in the crankcase, charge the battery then try bump-starting it again. If it started, I'd idle it for twenty minutes with a fan blowing on the engine, shut it down, then try starting it. If that didn't work, I'd change the oil then do it all again. Use of the fan will help control engine temperature if the condition of the engine's temperature control system is unknown. Does the coolant reservoir indicate coolant is in it?

  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.

Offline Chaos

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Rather than carb cleaner or WD, I probably would have tried something like PB Blaster or Kroil,  maybe let it sit overnight.  But, I've never had a sticky sprag so it's just a guess. 
  • sw ohio
1987 K75S    VIN 0231
Original owner, Original litter
200,000 miles (plus or minus) and 5 paint jobs
sold 6/23
2023 Ural 2WD sidecar (BMW's bastard step child)
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Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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The sprag works by rollers wedging between the driver and the driven rings.  When they get stuck so the friction can't roll them into the correct position against the springs, the starter won't engage.

Because you need some friction in there, I would avoid using anything with lubricating qualities, you want some friction and drag on the rollers for them to engage.  I'm pretty sure that WD40 is probably working against you, as well as any type of penetrating oil.  I would use something like a nonflammable brake cleaner to flush out the crap that may be causing the rollers to stick.  I wouldn't be stingy with it, give it 3 or 4 good shots an hour or so apart.  Once the starter is working I'm going to change the oil and remove it.

Second, while the cover is removed I'd try to get in there with a brass brazing rod and GENTLY tap it with a small hammer to loosen the rollers after the cleaner has had overnight to work.

Last, I'd pull the spark plugs so the starter has less resistance to running once it starts to work.  I'd let it spin the engine for a good ten to fifteen seconds to make sure everything is loosened up.  I'd do several spins before putting the plugs back, and then trying to start.  Then let it run for fifteen minutes with a fan on the cylinder head and exhaust headers.  That will further circulate the brake cleaner.  I also like the idea of running with the Rislone detergent during this procedure.

Once the starter spins the engine reliably, drain the oil and change the filter.  I would use Shell Rotella T6 full synthetic, 10w40 or whatever it is these days.  Walmart has it for $23 a gallon. 
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline filmhog

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I started to get very quick engagement.  Enough for the oil light to go off.  But lots of noise and struggle from the starter engagement.  I visualize the sprag sliding over the teeth of the starter and messing them up.
Plugs, injectors, battery (charged and then stored on bmw trickle) are all new.
Oil fresh today, bottle CD2 added.
I don't know what oil filter is installed currently.  My 74mm tool slips and my 73mm is 14 flats and doesn't fit at all.  Is the bmw factory a different size?  Im installing WIX as I use them for Diesel applications and they really do a good job.  Any thoughts on flow differences?
Trying to start her again.  I know the new battery needs to be topped up to spin that shaft.
What am I missing?  I wish there was a safe way to tow this to start it as hills are not available but years ago I remember towing something 2 wheel and discovered physics........
thanks for any input.
  • Reno, NV
  • 86 K75 Series K569 (4/86), former 89 k75, 2003 R1150rtP, Honda ST1100 '93, Harley Ultra Classic '89 Keith Black engine,'98 Triumph 1200.
Jan S.

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Sounds like the sprag is slipping and grabbing.  My guess is the rollers are starting to loosen up.  The slip is probably rattling the engagement slop in the balance shaft.  I would work the starter a bit more and let it set overnight before trying again.  I'm guessing you're close to getting it working again.

As far as the oil filter, Wix makes the filters for Carquest and Autozone.  I use the Carquest  #R85348 filter.  It works with a 76mm 14 flat wrench.  I'm not sure if it has a drainback valve or what the valve is made from, that is the only thing that may differentiate it from the OEM filters, but the way it is mounted on the engine prevents the oil from draining out when the engine is shut down anyway.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline Laitch

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But lots of noise and struggle from the starter engagement.  I visualize the sprag sliding over the teeth of the starter and messing them up.
You're hallucinating. Learn how the system works.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.

Offline Chaos

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Put a couple sheet metal screws through the filter wrench into the old filter.  That will keep it from slipping. 
  • sw ohio
1987 K75S    VIN 0231
Original owner, Original litter
200,000 miles (plus or minus) and 5 paint jobs
sold 6/23
2023 Ural 2WD sidecar (BMW's bastard step child)

Offline filmhog

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Gryphon, thanks for the numbers on the filters.  I have to get the one in the bike out.  since the 74 is slipping or spinning on the existing filter, Im going to lay a latex glove in the wrench and see if my purchase improves.
Charging tonight and letting it sit and will see what releases tomorrow am.  I might go back in and spray again.  But using the rocking back and forth in 2 and 3rd to shake loose the sprag.  That has made a noticeable movement in the engagement issue.
I have a strong fan ready and standing by because if this starts, Im letting it run for a while....then take it for a ride after establishing it will keep running.  This bike is an unknown quantity to me as I don't know any history.  It cam with a spare brain.  Don't know if it works or why it exists in the package.  The PO could have bought it to fix the sprag issue!  that is the level on involvement he had on the brick.
Thanks

Chaos, I like the solution to the filter wrench
  • Reno, NV
  • 86 K75 Series K569 (4/86), former 89 k75, 2003 R1150rtP, Honda ST1100 '93, Harley Ultra Classic '89 Keith Black engine,'98 Triumph 1200.
Jan S.

Offline volador

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Snowbum's got you covered https://bmwmotorcycletech.info/kstartersprag.htm

Not a Brick same sprag clutch issue by Kirk IllinoisBMWriders

  • NYC NY
  • 1991 K100RS 1993 K75S ABS
5 BOROUGHS SISYPHEAN SOCIETY  MAINTAINING THE OBSESSION

Offline filmhog

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Report on my spraying the sprag project.  I have sprayed heavily the sprag clutch through the CCC and into the 3 little holes.  I have seen them enough to realize they are offset. One favors the front, middle and rear of the ring.  Spun it twice and douched it with brake cleaner.  Let it set overnight.  No joy.  I had a partial engagement two days ago but none now.  So I will go in an try PB Blaster.  I have had great results on other bolts and stuck stuff with this product.  I realize that someone here had mentioned PB has lubricating qualities and that is not good for loosening the sprags.  I tried profusely with brake cleaner and it did not work....yet.
I have nothing but time on this so I can keep douching and working the starter.  Also am trying to push start it again as that would be the best solution I believe.
How stuck can these sprags be and with what kind of sludge?  Is is hardened or maybe im not getting the right stuff yet in there and release them.  The only thing getting worked is the CCC seal and I have ordered another for when this project is over.
You thoughts on my choice of PB.  I figure it works or it doesn't.  After carb cleaner, then brake cleaner, Im trying something new and will go back to brake cleaner maybe.  I will change the oil as soon as it fires so the oil is not contaminated with cleaners.
The groups thoughts please?  Is this many applications usual?
  • Reno, NV
  • 86 K75 Series K569 (4/86), former 89 k75, 2003 R1150rtP, Honda ST1100 '93, Harley Ultra Classic '89 Keith Black engine,'98 Triumph 1200.
Jan S.

Offline Laitch

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How stuck can these sprags be and with what kind of sludge?  Is is hardened or maybe im not getting the right stuff yet in there and release them.   Is this many applications usual?
You're experiencing how stuck they can be. They don't need to be any more stuck.  :-)

The sprags get fouled by the effects of carbon particles and water sludge. How fouled they get depends upon how well the engine is maintained, how often it is run and how often the oil is changed. If the engine is run often, well maintained and the oil is changed at appropriate intervals, there is less chance of the clutch failing. If the moto has been neglected, the engine will not only be subjected to degradation by condensation within it but there will likely be more combustion blowby products deposited within the crankcase to accumulate and foul the works.

There is no usual number of applications. Different methods are tried repeatedly until one of them works. You've had a few methods already recommended to you. If you try all of them—as instructed—repeatedly but none of them work, then partial disassembly of the engine will be necessary to repair or replace components. If you hire somebody else to do that for you, it will cost you plenty. Let that serve to inspire persistence and patience in you. Many have been successful using these chemical treatments. Some have bored a hole in the case to effect repair. Some have just gone ahead with replacing the part.

  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.

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