Author Topic: Turn signal whack revisited  (Read 1714 times)

Offline daveson

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2019, 05:48:00 PM »
You're teasing us now.



  • Victoria, Australia
  • Current;'86 K100RT Past; '97 Yamaha V Star 650 Yamaha V Star

Offline daveson

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2019, 05:50:12 PM »
You're teasing us now.

Would that be caused by one of the two relays in the flasher unit being disabled?

I'll have to try to reproduce it now.
  • Victoria, Australia
  • Current;'86 K100RT Past; '97 Yamaha V Star 650 Yamaha V Star

Offline beemuker

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2019, 05:54:51 PM »
greetings...

there are only 2 people who know what is causing that whack....

me and inge k...

j o
ok, I guess Inge is out, what's it going to take to get you to spill the beans? I already fueled up.
  • Panama City, FL
  • 94 K75s , Dakar yellow ABS

Offline daveson

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2019, 06:30:47 PM »
I'm going to guess the inner of the two relays in the flasher unit. But even if I get those symptoms by temporarily disabling it, I spose it would still be a guess. Unless the inputs and outputs test good.
  • Victoria, Australia
  • Current;'86 K100RT Past; '97 Yamaha V Star 650 Yamaha V Star

Online Martin

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2019, 06:43:12 PM »
As per RBM a bad earth connection.
Regards Martin.
  • North Lakes Queensland Australia
  • 1992 K75s Hybrid, Lefaux, Vespa V twin.

Offline Laitch

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2019, 06:47:43 PM »
Has rbm's suggestion in Reply #5 of heating likely cold solder joints within the flasher unit been undertaken yet? If not, why not? I don't see that checked off in the list.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 72,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,296.msg53303.html#msg53303

Offline daveson

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2019, 12:40:11 AM »
OK,  I have reproduced the symptoms by having both faults,  disconnecting earth at the rear,  and disabling the outer relay contacts.  I did this by placing thin cardboard to both sides of the contact arm.

Sadly it's not looking good for the flasher unit. I'm thinking the later flasher units are not as easy to dismantle. The contact arm might be broken. If you hold the flasher unit horizontally, with the eight pins row above the seven, give it a shake,  you might hear a faint noise,  possibly a broken arm sliding around.

Anyway,  see what you got after cleaning the parts suggested by RBM.
  • Victoria, Australia
  • Current;'86 K100RT Past; '97 Yamaha V Star 650 Yamaha V Star

Offline Laitch

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2019, 06:01:03 AM »
I'm thinking the later flasher units are not as easy to dismantle.
What does your thinking have to do with this? Do you have experience with them?
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 72,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,296.msg53303.html#msg53303

Offline daveson

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2019, 06:11:06 AM »
My newest brick is about 1990, a k75.  Although not as new as Beemukers, it is sealed on the bottom. The bottom is not sealed, and easily removed, on my other bricks.

The old one works well in the newer model. It's one of the things I like about bricks,  I can't see planed obsolescence in them,  and a lot of stuff backwards compatible to boot.
  • Victoria, Australia
  • Current;'86 K100RT Past; '97 Yamaha V Star 650 Yamaha V Star

Offline Laitch

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2019, 06:22:30 AM »
My newest brick is about 1990, a k75.  Although not as new as Beemukers, it is sealed on the bottom. The bottom is not sealed, and easily removed, on my other bricks.
Please explain how you opened the relay. That might help others if not Beemuker. There are no other part numbers in Max's fiche for that flasher that indicate a different part has superseded the original, so his is likely the same as yours
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 72,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,296.msg53303.html#msg53303

Offline daveson

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2019, 06:34:18 AM »
I used a trimming knife to carefully prise the bottom over its retaining tabs on the shorter sides. The tabs on the longer sides don't protrude as far so they can be ignored.
  • Victoria, Australia
  • Current;'86 K100RT Past; '97 Yamaha V Star 650 Yamaha V Star

Offline johnny

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2019, 10:25:56 AM »
greetings...

check all yourn fuses... they all gonna checks good... right...

replace all of them with new unused fuses...

try it... you gotts flashing... then remove fuse 3 and try it... you gotts nothing or flashing... what is it... double check fuse 6 cause its whack...

j o
  • :johnny i parks my 96 eleven hundert rs motobrick in dodge county cheezconsin  :johnny

Offline beemuker

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2019, 10:48:43 AM »
OK,  I have reproduced the symptoms by having both faults,  disconnecting earth at the rear,  and disabling the outer relay contacts.  I did this by placing thin cardboard to both sides of the contact arm.

Sadly it's not looking good for the flasher unit. I'm thinking the later flasher units are not as easy to dismantle. The contact arm might be broken. If you hold the flasher unit horizontally, with the eight pins row above the seven, give it a shake,  you might hear a faint noise,  possibly a broken arm sliding around.

Anyway,  see what you got after cleaning the parts suggested by RBM.
you are correct. my flasher is not easy to disassemble. after tearing out the rubber waterproofing, the long sides are loose, the short sides however won't seem to budge, even with prying to almost the breaking point. if I shake the unit, I do hear a slight rattle/faint noise. I don't want to destroy a part I'm not even sure is the problem since a new one is so pricey.
  • Panama City, FL
  • 94 K75s , Dakar yellow ABS

Offline beemuker

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2019, 10:52:26 AM »
greetings...

check all yourn fuses... they all gonna checks good... right...

replace all of them with new unused fuses...

try it... you gotts flashing... then remove fuse 3 and try it... you gotts nothing or flashing... what is it...

j o
thanks,I'll try this before I remove the tank to get at those connections.
  • Panama City, FL
  • 94 K75s , Dakar yellow ABS

Offline beemuker

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2019, 11:37:27 AM »
thanks,I'll try this before I remove the tank to get at those connections.
new fuse did not negate whack.
  • Panama City, FL
  • 94 K75s , Dakar yellow ABS

Offline beemuker

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2019, 11:40:25 AM »
you are correct. my flasher is not easy to disassemble. after tearing out the rubber waterproofing, the long sides are loose, the short sides however won't seem to budge, even with prying to almost the breaking point. if I shake the unit, I do hear a slight rattle/faint noise. I don't want to destroy a part I'm not even sure is the problem since a new one is so pricey.
finally did get it apart. relays look good, nothing looks loose, the slight rattle appears to be the circuit board moving slightly in it's slot. a complicated module with lots going on. got to get back to repairing hurricane michael damage to house and keeping ahead of the lawn mowing. at least Michael didn't damage the brick and it still runs great, all except the blinker whack. I would like to get them working for night rides.I can get the left to work by turning the hazard on and off.
  • Panama City, FL
  • 94 K75s , Dakar yellow ABS

Offline Laitch

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2019, 04:36:25 PM »
finally did get it apart. relays look good, . . .
If power is present and in spec on these wires, then another thing to try is to open the flasher module and reheat the solder joints where the pins join the PCB.  Sometimes the solder joints go cold and don't make a good connection.
Did you check to see if you had power at those pins rbm described? How does a cold solder joint differ in looks from a good one, Beemuker? If you did, what's stopping you from following rbm's instructions. I think I'm losing the plot.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 72,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,296.msg53303.html#msg53303

Offline beemuker

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2019, 05:13:45 PM »
Did you check to see if you had power at those pins rbm described? How does a cold solder joint differ in looks from a good one, Beemuker? If you did, what's stopping you from following rbm's instructions. I think I'm losing the plot.
I've tried to follow the suggestions I've had time for and I'm a little overwhelmed and am not sure how to check power at those pins or what a bad solder joint looks like. seems like there are thousands of tiny solder joints on this flasher.
  • Panama City, FL
  • 94 K75s , Dakar yellow ABS

Offline rbm

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2019, 06:01:19 PM »
You can insert your test leads from your multimeter into the bottom of the flasher module socket to contact the 1/4" female terminal pin.  Getting access to that side of the socket can be challenging because of the short leads but doable.

Cold solder joints generally look granular in texture and not shiny smooth.  Good solder joints are smooth, shiny and no hint of a grain to the solder.



You can examine the module PCB under intense light and a magnifying glass.  But, in the end, it's really easier to just reheat all the large joints to the connector pins.  It really helps to add a bit of resin core flux or electronic solder to the joint as it is being reheated so that the existing solder reflows.  Use a good iron, not too hot (600F - 700F) and don't dwell too long on the joint (3-5 seconds maximum).

  • Regards, Robert
Toronto, Ontario

1987 K75 - Build Blog @http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/

Offline daveson

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2019, 07:08:57 PM »
Yep,  it is daunting to look at,  never fear, motobrick is here.

You say you can get left to work by turning hazards on then off.  Does this mean your left and right buttons cant turn on anymore?  Does your right still work?  It seems like the symptoms are changing. I reproduced your symptom of right cancelling left by disabling the outer relay but then the right didn't work unless I disconnected earth at the rear, which made them increasingly dim as that puts them in series.

Anyway since the cover is off your flasher,  maybe make a photo. Have an overall look,  sometimes not just a crack but silver bits are missing, and it's green coating.

Another easy check with the cover off,  you can see one contact closing with the left indicator on,  the other  contact with the right,  and both contacts closing with the hazards.

When your indicators worked like hazards,  we're they at normal brightness, or some hardly noticeable?

If I were beside your brick,  I would try johnnys suggestion with ten fuses and check they are tight.

Your hazards should remain on even with the key off.

Maybe do a stock take,  there is some easily missed stuff, like E 30 Crazy's,  keep an eye on the clock with your tests, or all the lights for that matter,  that they work and are unaffected by the indicators. Or swap the load shed and horn relays,  if the part numbers match. A long shot but easy and quicker than the flasher.

  • Victoria, Australia
  • Current;'86 K100RT Past; '97 Yamaha V Star 650 Yamaha V Star

Offline daveson

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2019, 08:56:25 PM »
Actually, when you get time,  you might want to test earth's for the flasher unit.

With a full page draw the harness socket as you see it.  Label them all,  and watch someone check it.

On the top row I've got blank,  blank,  c,  blank,  31, ta,  tr, tl

Bottom row is R, L, 30, i, 15, blank,  W.

Test with ignition on,  engine off.

With test light clip on battery positive:

Touch probe to engine/frame bolt,  the bulb will glow,  your contact is good.

Put probe in W; light off.

Probe in ta; light off, and on when turn cancel is pressed.

Probe in 31; light should remain on.

Probe in tr; right indicators should glow constantly while turn right switch pressed.

Probe in tl; left indicators should glow constantly while turn left switch is pressed.

Don't let the probe touch anything else.

  • Victoria, Australia
  • Current;'86 K100RT Past; '97 Yamaha V Star 650 Yamaha V Star

Offline beemuker

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2019, 08:33:58 AM »
Yep,  it is daunting to look at,  never fear, motobrick is here.

You say you can get left to work by turning hazards on then off.  Does this mean your left and right buttons cant turn on anymore?  Does your right still work?  It seems like the symptoms are changing. I reproduced your symptom of right cancelling left by disabling the outer relay but then the right didn't work unless I disconnected earth at the rear, which made them increasingly dim as they are in series.

Anyway since the cover is off your flasher,  maybe make a photo. Have an overall look,  sometimes not just a crack but silver bits are missing, and it's green coating.

Another easy check with the cover off,  you can see one contact closing with the left indicator on,  the other  contact with the right,  and both contacts closing with the hazards.

When your indicators worked like hazards,  we're they at normal brightness, or some hardly noticeable?

If I were beside your brick,  I would try johnnys suggestion with ten fuses and check they are tight.

Your hazards should remain on even with the key off.

Maybe do a stock take,  there is some easily missed stuff, like E 30 Crazy's,  keep an eye on the clock with your tests, or all the lights for that matter,  that they work and are unaffected by the indicators. Or swap the load shed and horn relays,  if the part numbers match. A long shot but easy and quicker than the flasher.
WENT for a ride last night and the turn signals worked normally, for a while, then went back to being whacky, left or right light up all indicators with no flash as long as button is pushed,, hazards work, but when turned off left continue to flash and right, left, or cancel all work as a cancel.All at normal brightness, no dimming.
  • Panama City, FL
  • 94 K75s , Dakar yellow ABS

Offline daveson

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2019, 08:47:54 AM »
 Ignition on engine off, on the cluster you should have brake,  neutral, battery and oil warning lights. Is the oil light on?
  • Victoria, Australia
  • Current;'86 K100RT Past; '97 Yamaha V Star 650 Yamaha V Star

Offline rbm

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2019, 08:51:06 AM »
OK, so this is telling you that the flasher module is working, the pins are making contact with the plug OK, the wiring is not too badly messed up and switches are operational.  You need to check grounds again, especially under the tank.  Also, check the all of the fuses for continuity.  ATO fuses are NOTORIOUS for looking intact but electrically open.  Pull each and use a multimeter to verify each fuse even though you trust your eyes.
  • Regards, Robert
Toronto, Ontario

1987 K75 - Build Blog @http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/

Offline alabrew

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Re: Turn signal whack revisited
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2019, 05:12:02 PM »
WENT for a ride last night and the turn signals worked normally, for a while, then went back to being whacky, left or right light up all indicators with no flash as long as button is pushed,, hazards work, but when turned off left continue to flash and right, left, or cancel all work as a cancel.All at normal brightness, no dimming.

This sounds like shorting out wires in the harness moving around and causing whack.
  • Alabama
  • 1985 K100, 1991 K100RS
Also:
2005 K1200LT
1979 R65
200,000 miles on BMW motorcycles

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