Author Topic: Shot splines?  (Read 1149 times)

Offline szabgab

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2018, 03:23:04 PM »
You do not have to split the transmission to change the seal, you can do it from the outside no problem.

Oh great news. Is there an ordinary seal replacement, or does this has to be the $20 BMW seal?
  • Budapest, Hungary
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Offline johnny

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2018, 04:30:32 PM »
greetings...

dont cheepout on the seal... go oe... or the 1st one will soon be just practice...

j o
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Offline Filmcamera

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2018, 06:43:15 PM »
Agreed get the BMW OEM one for sure


This thread helps you get the right parts


http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,2883.0.html
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Offline szabgab

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2018, 11:47:22 AM »
OK, so I have taken the transmission off. Somehow the clutch splines look absolutely perfect to my eyes so that is a welcome surprise. I have spent nearly two hours to get just the center stand off, as the bolts were all rounded, so had to drill them off one by one. Not an easy task doing it underneath the bike, not on a lift, not much space to work with, so it wasall good fun. The bell housing is full of oily greasy muck I half expected this, as there was oil dripping veeery slowly from the weeping hole. It smells like oil and is black, so it will be engine oil. But as only I could have it, there is a snail trail from the input shaft seal down to the bottom, so that is most likely leaking too. So I might just go further to replace o ring + main seal... Because I have to order these things from BMW anyway, I might just order the output and input shaft seals from the same place... I hope, the clutch is not contaminated, it was not slipping at all, so there is a chance....

I will update some pics later, sorry in advance for the lousy quality, all I had today, was my phone and not a proper camera
  • Budapest, Hungary
  • K75S 1985 model

Offline szabgab

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2018, 12:12:46 PM »
pics
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Offline Laitch

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2018, 01:15:31 PM »
Take a photo with a proper camera directly in front of the disc's drive hub. Right now those hub splines seem worn. Consider all the work you are doing now and how much you'd like to do it again sooner than expected.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75T 68,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.

Offline szabgab

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2018, 02:42:48 PM »
Take a photo with a proper camera directly in front of the disc's drive hub. Right now those hub splines seem worn. Consider all the work you are doing now and how much you'd like to do it again sooner than expected.

Oh shoot, I hope you are not right :(

Anyway, see attached...
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Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2018, 02:47:51 PM »
When inspecting splines, I clean off the tops as much as possible and then look to see how much of the flat area is left.  The wider that flat surface is the happier it makes me.  When that flat area is more of a knife edge, the spline is junk.  These spines show a tiny bit of wear as witnessed by the very slight indent on the side of the spline, but as I mentioned the flat top is nice and wide.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '94 K75RT Mystic Red, '92K100RS White, '94 K75S Dakar Yellow
Current:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'94 K75S "Cheetos"
'91 K100RS "Moby Brick Too

Offline szabgab

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2018, 06:24:52 PM »
When inspecting splines, I clean off the tops as much as possible and then look to see how much of the flat area is left.  The wider that flat surface is the happier it makes me.  When that flat area is more of a knife edge, the spline is junk.  These spines show a tiny bit of wear as witnessed by the very slight indent on the side of the spline, but as I mentioned the flat top is nice and wide.

Gryphon, hopefully you are referring to the splines on my clutch, and not the one, you have attached a picture of :) These on mine still do have flat tops, so I hope, they can stay on the bike. Wish I had pre-ordered all the seals beforehand, as I did have an inkling, I am going to replace them, but hey, I do things these way all the time, basically being a bit too gung-ho :) Now where should I get a cheap centering tool quickly???
  • Budapest, Hungary
  • K75S 1985 model

Offline Filmcamera

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2018, 07:15:29 PM »
  • San Jose, Costa Rica
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Offline szabgab

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2018, 07:22:59 PM »
The top one on this page should do the job for you.


https://www.motorworks.co.uk/vlive/Shop/Parts.php?T=5&NU=15&M=40&Ct=CA&SbCt=BA_15_40_CA_30

Yes it would, but the postage is prohibitive. I have found a German tool, bgs-5090, that seems to be THE thing, costing about the same, as the motowork one, but minus the postage (and 2 day delivery). Or I might just go shamelessly begging at the local BMW club for somebody to lend me one for half a day
  • Budapest, Hungary
  • K75S 1985 model

Offline szabgab

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2018, 07:28:41 PM »
Some even printed one on a 3d printer, not sure, if I would trust a layered ABS plastic piece to be poked inside a hole in the engine
  • Budapest, Hungary
  • K75S 1985 model

Offline Laitch

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2018, 07:55:20 PM »
Take a photo with a proper camera directly in front of the disc's drive hub. Right now those hub splines seem worn. Consider all the work you are doing now and how much you'd like to do it again sooner than expected.
They are looking better in your latest photo. What is your plan? I seem like you are about to dismantle the clutch pack then inspect and measure the friction disc. If that is the case, be sure to mark a line across the edge of the parts in one place before disassembling to use for alignment when reassembling. Harris mentions this.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75T 68,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.

Offline szabgab

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2018, 06:54:00 AM »
They are looking better in your latest photo. What is your plan? I seem like you are about to dismantle the clutch pack then inspect and measure the friction disc. If that is the case, be sure to mark a line across the edge of the parts in one place before disassembling to use for alignment when reassembling. Harrirs mentions this.

Hi Laitch,  yes that is the plan,  if it would not be for the leak,  I would just leave it as is,  but since I need to address stuff further in,  I might as well take it apart, clean,  measure,  etc.  Harris and others mention the markings,  I will make sure,  I do that, I will just have to make sure,  it is durable enough :)
  • Budapest, Hungary
  • K75S 1985 model

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2018, 08:09:36 AM »
My description applies to any of the splines, clutch, drive shaft, or final drive.  Look for lots of flat at the top. 

If you are on a tight budget, almost anything can and has been used as a clutch centering tool.  Felt tip marking pens, and screwdriver handles have been used.  If you are patient, and have a good eye, you can even do it without a centering tool..
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '94 K75RT Mystic Red, '92K100RS White, '94 K75S Dakar Yellow
Current:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'94 K75S "Cheetos"
'91 K100RS "Moby Brick Too

Offline szabgab

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2018, 08:15:50 AM »
If you are patient, and have a good eye, you can even do it without a centering tool..
Haha,  I am not patient and my eyes are crap :D I have spoken to a lathe place,  who might just make me one,  if it is cheap enough. If not,  I'll make one from 18mm hardwood stock and a 6mm pin in the middle.  Speaking of which -  Chris' video shows a pushrod of a very different design to mine,  and looking at various pics on the web,  the k100 and k75 rods do differ.  So what kind of a tool should I get? A simple one with a 6mm+18mm sections,  or does it have to be more intricate,  just like the one on the pictures,  diy'ers use?

Thank you,

Gab
  • Budapest, Hungary
  • K75S 1985 model

Offline Laitch

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2018, 08:40:18 AM »
  So what kind of a tool should I get? A simple one with a 6mm+18mm sections,  or does it have to be more intricated,  just like the one on the pictures,  diy'ers use?
Get a tool designed for the purpose. Plans are on the site. Borrow one from the BMW club if it conforms to those dimensions. Even a plastic tool of the correct dimensions would be suitable.

Those experienced with mechanical work tend to view some procedures as uncomplicated that would in fact be difficult for somebody who is inexperienced and doesn't grasp the principles behind them. Part of the purpose of a clutch alignment tool is to speed up production in a factory or service shop by providing accuracy with less time devoted to patience.

On a different note - there is a lot of axial and radial movement of the swing-arm bearings, not just a little, but quite a lot. It does run smooth though and if the swing arm is tightened down properly, it does not have any free play at all. Is that normal or do I need to replace yet another thing?
Does this statement indicated that the bearings are loose in bores? What part or assembly is running smooth? How are you testing for free play?

  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75T 68,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2018, 09:04:27 AM »
If I'm not mistaken, the swingarm bearings are tapered and need a preload to remove the play you say they have.  There is a critical torque that must be applied to the left hand side to apply the correct preload.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '94 K75RT Mystic Red, '92K100RS White, '94 K75S Dakar Yellow
Current:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'94 K75S "Cheetos"
'91 K100RS "Moby Brick Too

Offline szabgab

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2018, 01:43:03 PM »
Get a tool designed for the purpose. Plans are on the site. Borrow one from the BMW club if it conforms to those dimensions. Even a plastic tool of the correct dimensions would be suitable.

Those experienced with mechanical work tend to view some procedures as uncomplicated that would in fact be difficult for somebody who is inexperienced and doesn't grasp the principles behind them. Part of the purpose of a clutch alignment tool is to speed up production in a factory or service shop by providing accuracy with less time devoted to patience.
Does this statement indicated that the bearings are loose in bores? What part or assembly is running smooth? How are you testing for free play?

Fair deuce Laitch, I would never call myself anyhow experienced, I am however brave and stupid enough to tackle stuff well above my league with the usual mixed results :)

I was asking, because the DIY tool has got multiple sections, just like the K100 clutch rod has (like this for example https://i.servimg.com/u/f86/11/16/56/81/clutch11.jpg ), but the tool, bmw motorworks and others sell is a lot simpler, basically it looks like the bgs-5090 in different disguise having a 6mm and a 18mm part with a very slight chamfer for insertion
  • Budapest, Hungary
  • K75S 1985 model

Offline Laitch

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2018, 02:32:06 PM »
I was asking, because . . .
What would be the ideal response from us that you're seeking?
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75T 68,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.

Offline szabgab

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2018, 03:16:01 PM »
Haha Laitch :D It is tricky to ask for an advise right after the tar snake man pissed you all off :)))

There is no such thing as an ideal response, if I would have one, I would just go ahead and do it my way. That never helped me in the past though and I am very much willing to listen to the advise of the more experienced. I can not eyeball the clutch, as I don't have the patience nor other positive traits needed for such thing, and I do not trust myself to make a tool, that would be precise enough for the task to be achieved. The lathe place can probably make me any shape, I'd need as long as I have the measurements, but the DIY tool, I have sent in my previous response may be this complicated, because the end of the K100 rod is this much intricate. Since the K75 rod is a lot simpler - basically a rod with a wide washer, I might be fine, or actually better off with the simpler tool. I am not a bike shop nor I will ever own a K100, so I might not need the other tool, but if you guys think, it makes for a more precise setting, I'll get that fabricated...

Now to the bearings - the only way, I have measured free play was with the swing-arm out and me tugging, pushing and twisting on the protruding inner race. That has got plenty of movement either way, but as Gryphon said it most likely needs preload. I must admit, I have watched the Harris videos previously till the disassembly finishes, now I have watched it all, and that answered my question - so before taking the transmission off, I have put the swing-arm back temporarily and tightened the pin to the specified 10Nm, and all the play was gone, the swingarm had only specified up and down movement without any binding, crunchy operation and so on... 
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Offline Laitch

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2018, 05:32:24 PM »
. . .I have watched the Harris videos previously till the disassembly finishes, now I have watched it all, and that answered my question
This statement indicates a budding understanding of correct procedure and is the most encouraging of anything you have written thus far. Whenever a multi-step procedure is being undertaken, all instructions involved with it should be read or viewed carefully—all the way to the end of the procedure before the first step is taken. That is the habit to develop rather than nurture impulsivity and impatience.

Good luck with your project.  :2thumbup:
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75T 68,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.

Offline szabgab

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2018, 05:49:13 PM »
... rather than nurture impulsivity and impatience.

:D I very well knew, I would need a clutch centering tool, seals, o-ring, and what not well before I have started to tackle this issue. At the very first moment, I have opened up the expensive parcel from the US I commenced on disassembling the bike - at first thinking, I will go as far, as the driveshaft replacement goes and ended up, where I am at now. I would need the bike on Monday but it is not going to be earlier than Tuesday or Wednesday, I'll get the seals and couple more days to get the tool. Two years ago I have taken apart my CB400 thinking I am in for some small things, ended up dismantling the WHOLE top end and waiting for three weeks off the road in the middle of the riding season for the special parts to arrive from the UK. One never learns :)))
  • Budapest, Hungary
  • K75S 1985 model

Offline szabgab

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2018, 03:40:18 PM »
OK... So one of the local BMW guys lent me a very professional tool. I've tried it, before taking the clutch pack apart and it was fitting perfectly. So I have commenced on the removal of the pack, it was greasy but the clutch disc somehow escaped dry, so at least I will not need to change that. Thickness is 4.96mm, so it is not new, but far from done I guess.

It was very hard to get the flywheel off as the rubber o ring was preventing to get it over the threads, I ended up cutting it up the rubber in situ (not an easy task, I'm telling you, but I'm sure, you guys know this very well), once that biatch was out of the way, the flywheel came off without a further ado. Now that f*cking seal gave me a nightmare, but we had our little fight and I have won, although at one point I was promising the bike to break it up for parts or even worse, turning it into a cafe racer, and that seem to have made the trick :)

Tomorrow I will get my new seals and I know, I should have the main seal installed 0.5mm proud, or is it? Proud or in 0.5mm? Does it matter at all, as long as it is not seating at the same place, as the previous one was? If proud, I was thinking of making a ring (of 80/70mm let's say) out of 0.5mm cardboard and use that, as a washer underneath the seal, is that plain stupid? After all, seals on mating surfaces are cardboard and they seem to hold up forever... What do you guys think?

Thanks!
  • Budapest, Hungary
  • K75S 1985 model

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Shot splines?
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2018, 06:22:51 PM »
I glued a piece of cardboard, with the correct size hole, from a breakfast cereal box to a piece of wood and used the piece of wood to drive the seal into place.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '94 K75RT Mystic Red, '92K100RS White, '94 K75S Dakar Yellow
Current:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'94 K75S "Cheetos"
'91 K100RS "Moby Brick Too

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