Author Topic: The Stellar Turbo K100  (Read 54252 times)

Offline stellarkyle

  • ^ Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 62
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2017, 10:09:11 PM »
Now to get caught up to present day...

In the middle of August, I was riding my bike on the interstate for the first time. I hadn't had the bike up to 70-80mph for more than a few seconds a this point. It was doing great for about 5mins before it surged a little then the engine completely died. I coasted over to the side of the road and the bike wouldn't start. The starter would engage but it wouldn't turn over. I trailered the bike back to the garage and didn't have much chance to work on it until a couple of weeks ago.

The first thing I suspected was the fuel pump. I wouldn't come on when the key was turned. I pulled the pump out of the tank and found this mess.




In hindsight, I should have tried soaking the pump to see if it could be resurrected but at the time I opted to get a new pump from one of the eBay links found on another thread. I picked up a new bracket and vibration dampener from them as well from Euro MotoElectrics (Part numbers 16 12 1 464 629 and 16 12 1 450 712). I replaced fuel filter and the gasket ring for the petrol gage as well (61 31 1 459 448). I cleaned out the tank a couple times with vinegar and scrubbed it with a brillo pad and it cleaned up nicely.



With the new fuel pump, the bike would turn over and run for a second or two and stop. It was at least it was closer to starting than before. I checked the injectors next and found that three were spraying weakly and the fourth was barely at all. Instead of sending them off to be cleaned for $18 a piece, I bought new injectors from Osidetiger. I figured it was a good excuse to do the upgrade.


I installed them this weekend and they've made the bike idle a little better. It'll run upwards of 5-8 seconds without dying now. It runs better without the choke being on at all and if I give it any throttle, it dies immediately. I went through the "Cause of No Start" guides and cleaned all electrical connections I could find. I pulled the sparks plugs and they were flooded but looked to be in good condition. I did, however, break the forth spark plug wire when remove the cap. The wire had rusted and fell off really easily. I swear stuff just breaks when I touch it.


Then I risked a fire by spraying carb cleaner around the manifold/throttle body trying to find an air leak but without success. I went to check the Z shaped crankcase breather hose that a lot of people have problems with for cracks only to find it wasn't there. I found this in it's place.

Here's where it connects.


The hose runs from the crankcase up under the front of the tank. The little pod filter was also oily as all get out. Where the Z shaped hose usually connects to the TB, there's a rubber plug/cover that's hose clamped to the TB (forgot to take a picture).

What been trying to do yesterday and today is test the fuel pressure regulator using a gauge setup from Harbor Freight but the darn thing won't stop leaking. Nothing like getting misted with gas. I even returned it and got a new one but the second one isn't much better. Couldn't be user error, right?  :falldown: On the best seal I was been able to get, the gauge read 40 psi for a few seconds before springing another leak. I'll try getting some different hose attachments this week to see if I can get a better seal.

My next thought is to follow this guide to try to find some electrical issue unless anyone else has other ideas: http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/K100/download/bike-wont-start1.htm

My only other thought is that it is an air leak somewhere else. Since it is a turbo, I guess there's potentially more places air could get in. I'm not going to spray carb cleaner all over the hot turbo though...



  • Marietta, GA
  • 1985 Turbo K100RS; 2001 F650GS

Offline Martin

  • ^ Quintessential Motobricker
  • Posts: 4440
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2017, 10:20:40 PM »
Try pulling the fuel pump number six, marked Kraftstoppe. Start the bike and see if it will run with the residual fuel left in the combustion chamber, as the bike starts to die ram the fuse back in. It helps if there are two people one on the throttle one on the fuse. It should run albeit roughly. If it does run after doing this, check the temperature sensor and it's connector and clean with Deoxit. There are posts on how to test the sensor and the values you are looking for.
Regards Martin.
  • North Lakes Queensland Australia
  • 1992 K75s Hybrid, Lefaux, Vespa V twin.

Offline stellarkyle

  • ^ Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 62
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2017, 10:29:20 PM »
Try pulling the fuel pump number six, marked Kraftstoppe. Start the bike and see if it will run with the residual fuel left in the combustion chamber, as the bike starts to die ram the fuse back in. It helps if there are two people one on the throttle one on the fuse. It should run albeit roughly. If it does run after doing this, check the temperature sensor and it's connector and clean with Deoxit. There are posts on how to test the sensor and the values you are looking for.
Regards Martin.


I'll give all of that a shot as soon as my replacement spark plug wires come in. I just ordered some used ones off of a running K100 LT. However, my bike had NGK wires before. Is there any reason for me to get a new set of NGK wires or should the used wires be fine?
  • Marietta, GA
  • 1985 Turbo K100RS; 2001 F650GS

Offline Martin

  • ^ Quintessential Motobricker
  • Posts: 4440
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2017, 10:45:41 PM »
As long as you have 5 Ohm resistor caps any wires are fine.
Regards Martin.
  • North Lakes Queensland Australia
  • 1992 K75s Hybrid, Lefaux, Vespa V twin.

Offline stellarkyle

  • ^ Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 62
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2017, 09:28:15 AM »
I had a thought sitting in class this morning. I don't know if I've ever heard the whirr of the fuel pump priming when turning the key. I only hear it when I push the starter button (like some people with K75 have reported). The pump is definitely pumping and I'm getting gas the cylinders because the spark plugs are wet. I didn't know if the fuel pump not priming could be an indication of an ECU problem or something with one of the relays.
  • Marietta, GA
  • 1985 Turbo K100RS; 2001 F650GS

Offline Martin

  • ^ Quintessential Motobricker
  • Posts: 4440
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2017, 04:26:30 PM »
On 2v Bricks it can only be heard when you press the starter.
Regards Martin.
  • North Lakes Queensland Australia
  • 1992 K75s Hybrid, Lefaux, Vespa V twin.

Offline stellarkyle

  • ^ Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 62
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2017, 01:54:27 PM »


Looking closer at the fuel pressure regulator, there’s no vacuum hose coming from the bottom of the regulator. Instead, the intake hose has a T fitting (seen in the picture) where one goes to the fuel rail (left looking at the picture) and the other to the throttle body (to the right looking at the picture). Is the regulator being bypassed? Being a turbo K, I don’t understand everything about why they’re set up the way they are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • Marietta, GA
  • 1985 Turbo K100RS; 2001 F650GS

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

  • Administrator
  • ^ Quintessential Motobricker
  • Posts: 6642
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2017, 02:07:18 PM »
While the plumbing is a bit odd, the end result should be similar to the customary way it's done.  What is a bit of concern is the lack of a vacuum connection.  That shouldn't matter at idle, but might affect the running when at full throttle and under load.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline stellarkyle

  • ^ Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 62
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2017, 02:08:19 PM »
More pictures



The left side of the regulator connects here after the T fitting (yellow).

Also, these plugs don’t have a home (blue).



Note it’s capped where the vacuum hose usually goes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • Marietta, GA
  • 1985 Turbo K100RS; 2001 F650GS

Offline stellarkyle

  • ^ Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 62
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2017, 02:09:18 PM »
While the plumbing is a bit odd, the end result should be similar to the customary way it's done.  What is a bit of concern is the lack of a vacuum connection.  That shouldn't matter at idle, but might affect the running when at full throttle and under load.

I agree. Definitely odd. Can any of the other guys with Turbos speak to this? How are yours connected?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • Marietta, GA
  • 1985 Turbo K100RS; 2001 F650GS

Offline stellarkyle

  • ^ Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 62
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2017, 03:35:26 PM »
I just tested the air temperature sensor and got a reading of 200Ω between pins #8 and #9 at the air flow meter. The air temperature was 22º C according to my meat thermometer. This seems pretty close to the chart found in the troubleshooting guide. Should I run the test at different temperatures even though it's reading pretty accurately at 22C?


  • Marietta, GA
  • 1985 Turbo K100RS; 2001 F650GS

Offline Arktasian

  • ^ Proficient Motobricker
  • Posts: 166
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2017, 09:44:29 PM »
Isn't your turbo kit a Luftmiester? You can gain knowledge of sorts by going to the RB Racing web site ( they actually built, installed, and raced those systems while Matt Capri broke stuff).
I can't speak for your system and can't see detail very well on the I phone, but a turbo bike fueling is hard to control without a manifold reference on the fuel pressure regulator as any increase from boost into the inlet manifold causes the same reduction in net fuel pressure. Atomization suffers and air fuel ratio can lean out at just the point it should be richening. As well, if you don't have a wide band O2 gauge to monitor fueling, nor the ability to tune your settings (believe that was the case on the Lufty) then you may court disaster when rolling on hard throttle and boost states. (Pistons melt)
Check out the RB site, I believe fuel regulator was supposed to be boost referenced.
  • Abbotsford

Offline stellarkyle

  • ^ Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 62
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2017, 07:55:30 PM »
The T connector I needed for the fuel gauge arrived. Hooked everything up and my fuel system is maintaining 40psi. Any ideas?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • Marietta, GA
  • 1985 Turbo K100RS; 2001 F650GS

Offline Martin

  • ^ Quintessential Motobricker
  • Posts: 4440
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2017, 08:06:09 PM »
It's within the acceptable margin of error 36 PSI is standard.
Regards Martin.
  • North Lakes Queensland Australia
  • 1992 K75s Hybrid, Lefaux, Vespa V twin.

Offline stellarkyle

  • ^ Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 62
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2017, 08:13:27 PM »
It's within the acceptable margin of error 36 PSI is standard.
Regards Martin.

That’s what I was thinking. I figured the problem would be the fuel pressure regulator or the weird way it’s hooked up but that doesn’t seem to be the case. I also got the correct resistance from the temperature gauge.  Doesn’t the EFI only take into account only air temperature (and assumes correct fuel pressure) when idling under 900 RPM?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • Marietta, GA
  • 1985 Turbo K100RS; 2001 F650GS

Offline Grim

  • ^ Proficient Motobricker
  • Posts: 494
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2017, 12:33:31 AM »
Man you are close by. Your brake meltdown was at Louise's. I'm off Canton Hwy by the fish market.

Read this all. What a beast. I can't image one of these with a turbo LOL

Your start up and die still sounds like a vac leak. Has this thing still got a door style AFM?  Is it after the intercooler?
The door style AFM has a switch for the fuel pump. You and stick your finger in and push the door and the pump should come on.

Under stand the basics of Bosch K FI
The fuel is controlled by the AFM and how much air it's pulling.  So dying when you give it gas is an indication that the fuel mixture is falling on its face because the motor is pulling air after the AFM if it dies when you give it gas or idle because it's not pulling the door open to keep the pump on.

Pull every boot at every connection. I'm betting one is split.

Give me first dibs on that Fairing when you pull it.
1995 Morea Green K1100LT

Offline Laitch

  • Faster than a speeding pullet
  • Administrator
  • ^ Quintessential Motobricker
  • Posts: 10153
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2017, 12:31:01 PM »
. . . because it's not pulling the door open to keep the pump on.
In the basic early K100 and its Jetronic control unit, the pump runs all the time regardless of the AFM door position. Read Arktasian's post again, stellarkyle. If the pressure regulator is hooked up "in a weird way", that might be to accommodate turbo boost by overriding the 36psi–40psi standard pressure.
  • Along the Ridley in Vermont.
  • 1995 K75 89,000 miles
I wept because I had no radials until I met a man who had no splines.

Offline stellarkyle

  • ^ Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 62
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2017, 03:12:48 PM »
Man you are close by. Your brake meltdown was at Louise's. I'm off Canton Hwy by the fish market.

Read this all. What a beast. I can't image one of these with a turbo LOL

Yeah, we are really close by then! We'll have get together to ride after my bike is up and running again.


It's definitely a beast. Maybe I'll let you take it for a spin. :riding:

Give me first dibs on that Fairing when you pull it.

First dibs is yours.


In the basic early K100 and its Jetronic control unit, the pump runs all the time regardless of the AFM door position. Read Arktasian's post again, stellarkyle. If the pressure regulator is hooked up "in a weird way", that might be to accommodate turbo boost by overriding the 36psi–40psi standard pressure.

That makes sense. I've scoured RB Racing's website but haven't been able to find anything regarding the fuel pressure regulator for the K100. It looks they've updated the website since earlier this year and possibly removed some pages I thought I remembered seeing.


I've already tried finding leaks by spraying carb cleaner on the manifold boots and other connection points without finding anything but I'll check them more thoroughly when I have time to work on the bike again. Gotta love midterms...
  • Marietta, GA
  • 1985 Turbo K100RS; 2001 F650GS

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

  • Administrator
  • ^ Quintessential Motobricker
  • Posts: 6642
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2017, 04:08:50 PM »
I have spent a bit of time rereading some of the more recent posts, and am a bit confused.

From post #31

"Looking closer at the fuel pressure regulator, there’s no vacuum hose coming from the bottom of the regulator. Instead, the intake hose has a T fitting (seen in the picture) where one goes to the fuel rail (left looking at the picture) and the other to the throttle body (to the right looking at the picture). Is the regulator being bypassed? Being a turbo K, I don’t understand everything about why they’re set up the way they are."

In an earlier post you mention that a breather hose is connected to the throttle body but it seemed you were referring to the plenum above the throttle bodies.   I try to see what is going on with the plumbing on the engine, but none of the photos really gives a clear picture of where things are routed. 

Disclaimer:  I have never had any exposure to a fuel injected turbo engine.  The following is based on limited experience with my three K bikes.

First, the fuel supply plumbing.  Inside the tank the output of the pump should go to the input of the filter.  Filter output goes out to the outlet hose connection on the fuel tank(the one to the rear).

A hose from the tank outlet should go to the rail(doesn't really matter which end).  The other end of the rail should have a hose that goes to the side of the regulator.  The outlet of the regulator shoud go to the forward hose connection on the tank.  The smaller vacuum port on the regulator should go to the vacuum port on the rearmost throttle body.

Next is the breather plumbing.  This is where I have problems, because if the turbo is installed between the MAF sensor and the plenum, the plenum will be under a positive pressure when the turbo is providing boost.  Putting a positive pressure on the crankcase by connecting the plenum to the breather connection on the crancase can possibly result in blowing the engine seals at worst or at least blowing oil past the rings.

I suspect that the hose with the oil soaked filter is meant to vent the crankcase to atmosphere.  If that is the case, then the hose connection on the plenum should be plugged to prevent unmetered air from entering thee intake manifold.

The breather hose with the filter should probably be installed so the free end is as high as possible to prevent oil from leaking out the end.  The filter is to prevent negative crankcase pressure from sucking dirt into the engine.  I wonder if the fact the filter is oil soaked is interfering with the operation of the breather to allow a neutral or slightly negative pressure in the crankcase.

My suggestion at this point is to plumb the fuel system as I described above before proceeding any further.  This will get you back to the original configuration so we can totally eliminate any unknown fuel delivery issues from the equation.

With the plumbing corrected I would test the system for function:

First, disconnect the supply hose from the tank output at the rail.  Turn on the ignition and try to start the engine.  When the start button is pressed fuel should begin to flow and then continue to flow until a second or two after the button is released.  Flow should be around a half liter per minute or about an ounce in 4-5 seconds. 

Look closely at the fuel you pumped out.  Is there water or any dirt specs in it???  If so, it will be necessary to flush more fuel to get the delivery plumbing cleaned out.  when the proper amount of fuel is coming out of the hose, connect it and go to the other end of the rail.

Disconnect the return hose from the other end of the rail nad connect a clean hose from the rail into a clean container like you did with the supply line from the tank.  Do the start button thing again and check the cleanliness of the fuel.  You want to be absolutely sure there is no dirt in the rail that can get into the injectors. 

When you're sure the rail is clean and the fuel flow is good, reconnect and go to the return hose connection at the tank and again do the start button thing with the hose into a clean container.

Last, connect your fuel gauge and check system pressure.  If the pressure is correct put everything back together, fuel delivery is not your problem.

The next area to check would be fuel metering:  First thing is to be sure that moving the MAF sensor flapper results in a changing resistance value at the ECU.  This is where an old fashion analog meter is the best test.  Resistance at the ECU connector should change smoothly as the flapper is moved.  Any jumping or jerkiness in the needle's motion will indicate a bad sensor.

Beyond that it looks like you have tested the temperature sensor and it is working okay. 

Are the injectors pulsing properly?  If I am not mistaken,with power always on them,  they are turned on by grounding them at the ECU.  Is there a short to ground in the injector wiring that is causing them to be on all the time, flooding the engine with fuel after a few seconds of running?  Easiest way to check would be to pull them and the rail and try cranking the engine with the start button.  If they spray constantly without pulsing, that may be the problem.

Not sure what other suggestions I can offer.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

  • Administrator
  • ^ Quintessential Motobricker
  • Posts: 6642
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2017, 04:27:57 PM »
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline Grim

  • ^ Proficient Motobricker
  • Posts: 494
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2017, 05:19:57 PM »
1995 Morea Green K1100LT

Offline stellarkyle

  • ^ Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 62
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2017, 05:27:22 PM »
I have spent a bit of time rereading some of the more recent posts, and am a bit confused.

From post #31


In an earlier post you mention that a breather hose is connected to the throttle body but it seemed you were referring to the plenum above the throttle bodies.   I try to see what is going on with the plumbing on the engine, but none of the photos really gives a clear picture of where things are routed. 


Maybe I can help clarify how things are hooked up with some pictures:




Here’s where I’m confused. I don’t think the pink thing is standard on K100’s and the cyan thing is definitely not stock. Anyone know what they are? I need to take them off to get a closer look.

Also, it looks like the turbo is before the MAF sensor.

The intercooler connects to the MAF sensor. Why would there be an additional air input (where the pod air filter is) after the intercooler? Wouldn’t this introduce the atmosphere into the already boosted air?
  • Marietta, GA
  • 1985 Turbo K100RS; 2001 F650GS

Offline Grim

  • ^ Proficient Motobricker
  • Posts: 494
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2017, 05:43:03 PM »
Maybe I can help clarify how things are cooked up with some pictures:




Here’s where I’m confused. I don’t think the pink think is standard on K100’s and the cyan thing is definitely not stock. Anyone know what they are? I need to take them off to get a closer look.





Also, it looks like the turbo is before the MAF sensor.

The intercooler connects to the MAF sensor. Why would there be an additional air input (where the pod air filter is) after the intercooler? Wouldn’t this introduce the atmosphere into the already boosted air?

The "what am I" looks like it has an injector plug. With a turbo you need more fuel so maybe that's an injector upstream?  That may be where the other hose is going. 

Is there a blow off valve hiding under that filter?

1995 Morea Green K1100LT

Offline stellarkyle

  • ^ Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 62
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2017, 06:20:49 PM »
The "what am I" looks like it has an injector plug. With a turbo you need more fuel so maybe that's an injector upstream?  That may be where the other hose is going. 

Is there a blow off valve hiding under that filter?

Oooooh, that totally makes sense. RB Racing says on their website that equipped some of the K100’s with a fifth injector. Didn’t put two and two together.

The filter? The thing I highlighted with pink?
  • Marietta, GA
  • 1985 Turbo K100RS; 2001 F650GS

Offline Grim

  • ^ Proficient Motobricker
  • Posts: 494
Re: The Stellar Turbo K100
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2017, 08:18:50 PM »
The air filter on the intake tube might be hiding a blow off valve. Does it pop when you get out of the throttle?
1995 Morea Green K1100LT

Tags: